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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [samuelch] [ In reply to ]
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I have been using zwift extensively this off season, mainly due to a road bike in the workshop. I have found that racing 2-3 times per week with a warm up and a cool down session, is an excellent way to get power in the legs. The competitive gene kicks in, and I push harder, for longer, than I would otherwise. Previously I used trainerroad, and I do sporadically still use the Zwift workouts to get a 2 hour endurance ride in, but I am having much more fun now and that makes me keen to do more.

So I love it. Not sure about FTP. I will be retesting later this week, but visually I am a lot stronger and I donā€™t think my leg muscles have ever looked like this before.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
....This stuff works - just a question in my mind does it work as well as others.

But this is by far, no doubt in my mind, the most fun structured training Iā€™ve ever done and Iā€™ve been at this for 10 years now
I wouldn't call races "structured training". It's scheduled but I wouldn't call it structured.

I've been using Zwift heavily for about 16 months. Races work really well to motivate me for sustained hard efforts, and it sounds like you are finding the same. I'm certain they will make you fitter. However, I doubt they're the best way to do it, in isolation. As others have touched on, your efforts will be effected as much by what other riders are doing as by what you're capable of. Either consciously or subconsciously you'll likely hold a little back when you can to allow you respond to attacks or fight it out in a sprint. This is not quite the same as a structured workout, where you know what's coming, you know what you should be able to do and you'll more likely pace yourself evenly for sustained efforts. For example, if you are drafting in a group while doing 260W, increasing your output to 280W will probably achieve nothing. It may or may not be enough to move to the front of the group but it won't be enough to raise the group's speed. So, you'll likely either sit at 260W, raise the power a little just temporarily to do a turn at the front, or raise it significantly to make an attack. That's just one example of how tactics will inevitably dictate how hard you work and when, more so than your ability alone.

I do some races on Zwift and I consider them very valuable training tools but I also do both structured workouts and some terrain based intervals like ZenTriBrett mentioned.

Typically I'll do a mix of some longer outdoor rides, combined with say a 2x20min@95%FTP session and a VO2max session each week. Sometimes I'll replace one of those two sessions with a race or a difficult group ride. Other times I'll replace them with a terrain based session. For example, I think hill repeats on the short hill just after the start/finish area in Watopia is perfect for VO2max training. I'll do a warm-up and then head for the hill, do say 6-8 reps aiming for a time just short of my PB and then cool down. It's easy to pick turnaround points that give the desired amount of recovery. So at present (carrying a little extra weight) I can get up that hill in about 2:30, so I do reps where I aim for about 2:35-2:45 and that puts me around 115-125%FTP. The stimulus is different than just staring at the wattage and the countdown timer on a programmed workout but it's essentially the same thing. Likewise I'll occasionally go up the big mountain "Epic" climb either forward or reverse as a long interval for either sweetspot or threshold effort training. Forwards is shallower but longer and takes me about an extra 4 minutes compared to the reverse direction. Just below FTP it takes me about 22 minutes reverse and 26 minutes forwards either of which is a good interval length for a 90-100%FTP effort. Repeat one side or do one of each. On occasion just go up it once at about 105%FTP and try and set a new PB.

Variety is good, for the body and the mind.
One other thing, while races are good motivation, if you're training for TTs or triathlons, it's also important to be able to motivate yourself when riding solo against the clock at a consistent pace. I think long hard intervals like a 2x20min session works very well to prepare you for that. But if I only do that, I get bored.


ZenTriBrett wrote:
Pay attention to when you climb the hills. There's a 3 minute hill, a 5 minute hill, a 10 minute hill, and you can turn the mountain into a 20 or 30 minute hill. Ride those hills at lactic threshold or higher efforts and scatter them about your ride as if they are intervals on a formal workout. Ride everything else easy. Watch FTP shoot through the roof.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you - zwift races are about as close to a real race as you can get in a video game ... but not the same.

Sounds like I keep after it this way until I plateau.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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Zwift has ruined most of my group rides. Constant surging and no idea how to ride a paceline. Emphasis on riding for oneself and not working to make the group faster or keep it together.

On the plus side, the Zwifters are the ones who are useless at the end of a race. They'll have shot their wad closing gaps and any kind of a crosswind destroys them. Also, very few know how to go genuinely deep for those defining-moment 2-4 minute scary-hard sections when the break goes or half the field is dropped.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [TriathlonJoe] [ In reply to ]
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TriathlonJoe wrote:
I had to stop racing on Zwift. It was wrecking all of my other workouts. Talk about going into a pain cave.

I've just finished a 7-day trial. Day one I decided to do a 4-lap race. Hell that was a workout! My Garmin told me I needed 44 hours recovery; I scoffed and did two easyish sessions the next day. Within 3 days I felt like cr*p and had a sore throat/cold. Okay it's that time of year with 2 young kids, but I'd agree you have to ration-out the racing, if you're training 3 disciplines.

29 years and counting
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
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carlosflanders wrote:
Zwift has ruined most of my group rides. Constant surging and no idea how to ride a paceline. Emphasis on riding for oneself and not working to make the group faster or keep it together.

On the plus side, the Zwifters are the ones who are useless at the end of a race. They'll have shot their wad closing gaps and any kind of a crosswind destroys them. Also, very few know how to go genuinely deep for those defining-moment 2-4 minute scary-hard sections when the break goes or half the field is dropped.
I find it unlikely that Zwift specifically is the culprit. A shift towards indoor training generally is certainly a potential reason that you may find faster riders who don't have the pacing and handling skills you'd expect, but why do you think Zwift specifically is an issue? Are you sure it does more to influence this than TrainerRoad, Sufferfest, etc, or just staring at your bike computer.

What distance races are you doing? A potential alternative theory for "Zwifters are the ones who are useless at the end of a race" could be that most of us do shorter durations when training indoors, so those training extensively indoors are at more risk of being short of endurance.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
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I also suspect those using full 'FE-C' trainers are at an advantage in races, as they account for gradients and drafting; those of us on PMs & classic trainers don't get that feedback. Although everytime my avatar sat-up in the draft I tried to ease-off.

29 years and counting
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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true, but people using a PM can still push 270 watts going downhill versus someone on a smart trainer trying to do the same.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
I also suspect those using full 'FE-C' trainers are at an advantage in races, as they account for gradients and drafting; those of us on PMs & classic trainers don't get that feedback. Although everytime my avatar sat-up in the draft I tried to ease-off.

Totally. I just have Vector pedals on a spinning bike, but every time I see that huge hill in the london loop coming up, I immediately think "aw shit, this is gonna hurt". Lol.

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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
Zwift is like cycling crack. Have to be really careful about not overdoing it - or else itā€™s bad for you!

Just did my first, short Zwift race the other day to test the waters. I already knew I'd be hooked going into it and had a blast, I still get amped up on the smell of a competition.

For some anecdotal advice:
Back in the early 90's I raced amateur out of Belgium for two spring/summer seasons. As a US racer, you were used to just a weekend "tour of the unknown business park" type of season schedule. So with the Belgian summer of a race(s) being available nearly any day of the week, I and other US and Aussie racers who hung out together, did just nearly that. We would be trying to squeeze in 3 or 4 races a week.

For the first month as you got used to the style and intensity, you basically improved every week. But then a familiar pattern would start to develop...you would have 2 or 3 good races in a row, but then followed by 4-5 where you felt just a little to flat and not have a great result. Races there had a rule where if you fell 4 minutes behind the lead riders, they would pull you. If your group was in the top 20, you would just sprint for the placing and stop. Typically in a summer midweek race with 40 riders, only 7-8 would go the full 120k typical distance. So there was sort of a fitness self-regulating aspect going as when you were flat you would end up racing less distance until you got your freshness back. (Later I would see that some of the better riders would pick their races smarter, racing every 4-5 days).

"Racing is the best training" was the motto, but maybe not the most sustainable strategy. The structured workouts on Zwift that I've done so far hit a good intensity mix (4 week FTP builder has sessions of about an hour), but also have the recoveries so you don't feel fried. I'll mix the workouts and easy rides with occasional races to mix it up and have fun. Like you, I only have an hour a couple times a week, but I feel like the mix and down week is something I could do most of the year and have fun. Maybe I picked up some wisdom along the way...

I only do 1 or 2 mtb races a year now, seems like every event is so expensive. So really I'm happy to have all the race simulations I want for $15 a month on Zwift.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
I also suspect those using full 'FE-C' trainers are at an advantage in races, as they account for gradients and drafting; those of us on PMs & classic trainers don't get that feedback. Although everytime my avatar sat-up in the draft I tried to ease-off.

Plus some have a tendency to exaggerate high-end power. My Kickr SNAP is pretty accurate from 0-900W. But in a final sprint where I'm doing, say, 1100W, my trainer sometimes has me at a Cavendish-grade 1300W. So while in real life, I sprint like a triathlete, in Zwift I'm something of a badass in field sprints. It's kinda unethical, so I've switched to using my Power2Max to feed back to Zwift, while still allowing Zwift to control the trainer.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Iā€™m sure there are tons of issues with accuracy of watts on zwift. I try not getting caught up in it - some guys just race faster than me (just like in real life)

I Just do the best I can everyday ... place in race makes me feel good, but doesnā€™t really matter
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think I've ever heard of a P2Max over reading; certainly not mine šŸ˜

29 years and counting
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard of a P2Max over reading; certainly not mine šŸ˜
In that case what PM should I buy that does? ;)
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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I think you need to calibrate your power meter in the sauna and then ride it in an icy cold garage. No, wait, it is the other way round..... eek?

Ach, just change your weight to 44kg and pretend you are an Asian lady cyclist?
Last edited by: Misery: Jan 26, 18 6:36
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Misery] [ In reply to ]
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Misery wrote:
I think you need to calibrate your power meter in the sauna and then ride it in an icy cold garage. No, wait, it is the other way round..... eek?

Ach, just change your weight to 44kg and pretend you are an Asian lady cyclist?
I'm always surprised how many guys <50kg are on Zwift! Makes me feel rather overweight.
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard of a P2Max over reading; certainly not mine šŸ˜

It was my Kicker SNAP over-reading, not the P2M (maybe you knew that, just clarifying).
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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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Also consider that racing can be much harder on your body than interval workouts such as sweet spot sessions which purport to balance quality work with the amount of recovery needed.


mvenneta wrote:
Middle aged, eh??? :)

I just canā€™t get enough sleep with 3 little toddlers to recover properly anymore ... and maybe itā€™s because Iā€™m getting older (and wiser). 2/1 is best Iā€™ve found I can do without working myself into a hole.


fstrnu wrote:
Structured interval sessions are a better way to improve your FTP, especially with limited time.

Recovery intervals allow you to push harder during the active intervals and you can progress over time by lengthening intervals, shortening recovery between intervals, and increasing watts to maintain intensity as your fitness improves.

DO keep the periodic rest weeks, however. 2 weeks on, 1 week recovery is spot on if you are middle age or older. If you are younger then you might want to try 3 on / 1 off.



mvenneta wrote:
Due to family / work, I am riding almost exclusively on zwift these days.

Iā€™m pretty much locked in at 5 hours / week Max (~1 hr / day). Any more training comes at expense of sleep.

Iā€™ve been mostly doing 60min zwift races 2-4x / week. 2 weeks on, 1 week recovery. For me they end up being 93-97% of FTP most days.

Iā€™ve been seeing 60min power consistently build for 3 months with this ā€œplanā€.

Is best way to keep building ftp continuing on this path? Switch to vo2 work or shorter ftp efforts? I canā€™t add more hours unfortunately.

Seems what I am doing is working, but wondering if thereā€™s a more effective way to build 60 min race power than just racing a lot?

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Re: Zwifting to higher ftp? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Yep. Some smart trainers can be quite flattering.

29 years and counting
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