My friend and I always do a complete set of Sun Salutations before every race, before warming up. Works like a charm.

Eric -

All of these responses but only one other person so much as suggested you look at your running form - it could be a lot easier to see if you can find the cause and change that than having to cure the effect. You yourself mentioned that you used to have the problem because of your previous cycling form, and it improved when you changed it. Most likely the same thing could happen from poor running form. For starters, are you a by chance a forefoot runner, or a heel striker like most?

[reply]Doc, if I am prone to AT trouble, I should not stretch first? Should I warm up by walking a while and then run? Confused.[/reply]

Well...loaded question. "Current" research (and my own personal opinion, and apparently SAC as well) is NO, not to stretch first. Start off walking/slow jog, then slowly increase speed as the muscle warms up.

Stretching IS beneficial if you already have an injury (esp. things like plantar fasciitis, ITB syndrome, etc.), but has not been demonstrated to PREVENT the injury in the first place - that distinction must be clear.

Achilles tendonitis is a common, and very difficult pathology to eradicate once is gets a hold. Even if I do manage to find out what caused it (shoes, running form, some alien/wierd biomechanical issue, etc.), the body still needs to heal it, and it is slow; even slower still in a triathlete who considers "rest" a 5 mile jog with some light spinning for 20 miles on the bike ;)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I'm more of a midfoot striker. I'm definitely not a heel striker because I learned not to do that. My PT corrected my walking form. I was actually walking without bending my ankle. This caused my calf to never release so it tightened up. With my running form and walking form, I believe that I'm releasing my ankle so that my calf muscles are in many different positions throughout my stride. I may get a followup PT appointment in January and see what's going on.

Thanks.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

Not that I'm any expert, but I do know persistent calf pain is far more common among midfoot and forefoot runners, as it stretches and put more strain on the calves. I converted to forefoot after years of being a heel-striker, and had a lot of calf soreness and tightness for quite awhile. I know it is much easier said than done, but I believe the key is total relaxation of the lower leg after is has left the ground. The tendency is to have tension there, and this causes us to resist letting the calves, achilles, etc, absorb the body weight upon landing as we should. Once you train yourself to do that I think the pain will go away.

This is one drill I read somewhere that helped me a bit. Stand on one leg at a time and lift the other off the ground. Pretend you have a piece of paper stuck to the bottom of your foot and you are trying to shake it loose. Feel how you shake from the upper leg and everything below the knee just kind of dangles but is completely loose and has no tension in it. Then when you are running try and think about getting that same sensation. It takes a while til you can do it naturally while running, but if you can learn to completely relax those lower leg muscles I think you'll get rid of the calf pain.

I can see how a forefoot striker is prone to more calf problems. I believe that midfoot or forefoot striking my be the cause of my problems. I do feel like I keep a lot of tension in my calves when I run so I'll try out the drill that you suggested.

Thanks.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

thanks

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Why exactly are you "forcing" yourself to run on your forefoot/midfoot? I see lots of patients who try this new "tecnique" and end up with calf strains, achilles issues, etc. Just run NATURALLY. When you jog, walk or run slow it is perfectly natural and OK to land with your heel first - that is what it is for. The faster you run, the more NATURALLY you will transition from rearfoot to midfoot then forefoot "striking". We are built to do this. The problem is many people try to train themselves to midfoot land at a 7 min/mile, and then spend WAY to much time with the calf in tension during midstance. Then asking it to contract more with heel off/propulsion. Now we have advice to "loosen up" when landing .... We watch FAST runners and try to emmulate them. They are midfoot strikers BECAUSE they are running fast, not the other way around.

Simply get on a treadmill and try the test. Run as loose and natural as possible at an easy pace. Increase the speed until you feel your gait "change" to a more midfoot strike - notice the speed. Increase again until you are "forced" to forefoot strike to keep the speed. Now slow back down to the previous speed, but try to forefoot strike like in your sprinting. You will get the neurological lesson and feel pretty quickly.

Good luck.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Doc -

I know this topic has been done to death, but since you raised it again I wanted to respond. You say to just run NATURALLY. Well we don't run naturally by landing on our heels. Go out and run barefoot in your yard sometime. You will find that you land on your forefoot with your heel never touching the ground. This is how we run naturally. Most folks have ADAPTED to heel striking, because modern running shoes are all built with an inch or more of material built up under the heel, even in so-called racing "flats". When we run in these shoes we ADAPT to running that way by letting that hunk of rubber take all of the impact, rather than the muscles and tendons in our lower leg that take it when we run "naturally" (barefoot). After awhile, this becomes natural to us, and those muscles and tendons weaken from not being used as they were intended.

I don't doubt that you see many people with injuries to the calf and achilles when they try to switch back to forefoot running, as those muscles are not developed yet from lack of use. But 3/4 or so of runners are heel-strikers, and most of them (e.g. me before I tried to convert) are injured all the time as well.

We all try and work on our form when cycling. (SpinScan, PC's, one-leg drills, etc) We are all told that swimming is best improved by working on form rather than grinding out sets. It certainly is not natural when we start swimming to rotate over on our side every stroke, or drag our hand along the side of our body on recovery. But we learn to do and it becomes "natural" after thousands or millions of repititions of forcing ourself to, because we are told that is the proper way to swim.

There is no reason that we can't do the same in running. Now I'm NOT here arguing that anyone should change their form to run midfoot, forefoot, or any other method. That is for everyone to decide for themselves. I've tried to change (due to constant injuries running that "natural" way) after 20+ years of running as a heel-striker, and it is a difficult and painful process, which I am still not sure will be best for me in the long run. But I have to take issue with your statements that it is natural to run on the heel, or that you can't or shouldn't change if you want to.

First - you are wrong. Normal gait pattern with walking and jogging (to a certain speed that is, different in each person) is heel strike with a supinated subtalar joint, Midstance with pronation throughout, toe off with re-supination of the subtalar joint and pronation of the midtarsal joint to lock the forefoot, then swing phase. Also, the "evil" shoe empire did not weaken anyones "ligaments or tendon" as you have put. Shoes are designed based on what they will be used for. Not much of a heal or cushion at all in a track spike that I used to wear (because it is not needed). A recreational "jogger" generally "needs" some rearfoot or forefoot cushioning because he/she is running on the every so popular concrete/cement that our ancestors didn't enjoy. If you want to run barefoot or forefoot only, that is fine - many people do (especially fast ones). Just be aware that your achilles, spring ligament, PT tendon, plantar fascia, won't be too happy. We are perfectly designed to run on the forefoot very quickly, but for short periods of time. Humans are unique in the animal world in that we can "train" our bodies to endurance sports. But, you are mixing "speed mechanics" with natural tendencies. The truth is in between, and running "economy" is generally more important to triathletes than a sprinters form (very important).

This has been studied ad nauseum over the years and there are lots of video feeds with markers over the heels, knees, etc. if you want to search for them.

Again the "faster" you run, the less you "land" on your heel, but you still do. At about a 7 min/mile, I mostly land on my midfoot when barefoot. At a 5 min/mile I'm definitely midfoot with little to no heal strike, and sprinting, it is forefoot to forefoot (supinated throughout) only. Yes, I'm very fast running on my forefoot only (like a horse does on it's toes), but not very efficient and can't do it for long. I'm not doing myself any favors trying to "train" my body to run like this for a marathon lets say that I might run at a 7 min/mile.

Also, muscles can only do one thing: contract. When muscles contract, they exert a force and shorten (i.e. the biceps contracts and flexes the forearm. BUT, a muscle can also contract and lengthen (call eccentric contraction). Best example is the barbell curl: biceps contract, flexes the arm, but when lowering the barbell, the biceps is contracting and lengthening. This is MUCH harder on the muscle. When teaching your gastrosoleus muscle to adapt to runnon slowly on the forefoot, you are asking your calf to contract and lengthen (eccentric) which is much harder than a simple concentric contraction that it is designed to do.



I hope you don't walk around without your heel hitting the ground, bouncing like Tigger ...

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Go run barefoot on some grass. It will fix you up instantly.

Well Doc, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Not on any of the anatomical stuff. I'm not a doctor - I have no doubt everything you said in that regard is completely accurate.

First of all, I never said or implied that I thought the shoe companies were "evil". I just said they make shoes with built-up heels. They are capitalists. That's what most runners want, that's what they give them - this is as it should be and I didn't criticize it.

I just disagree that your desription of what is a "normal gait pattern" is so concrete. If you consider it "normal" because that is what most people, do, yes. But that is because it is learned and adapted to be that way. For one thing, not all folks run that way even from day one. I run sometimes with an accomplished runner (marathon PR of 2:36) in his mid-fifties who has run on his forefoot since he started running as a teenager. Fast, slow, long distance, sprint, it doesn't matter, that's just always how he's run, and he's about as injury free as any runner I have ever met, even at his age. Of course he is in the minority. But again I'll mention, when I first tried to convert to forefoot landing, I was told to go out and run barefoot. I did so for about a mile on grass (slowly). I was shocked to find that my heel never touched the ground, after 23 years of running as a heel-striker - that is how I "naturally" ran when barefoot. Now of course if I had kept that up much longer, as you said, I would have hurt my calves and achilles (they were already getting bit sore), as they were not used to being used in that way. It takes time to adapt them to do so. But I would contend that anyone running for the first time in any given way, whether it be landing on their heels, their forefoot, or their knees for that matter, would be sore in many different muscles at first. Just as any of us are when we start running or any other muscular activity for the first time or after a layoff. After awhile, the body adapts, and the soreness goes away. I've now done several 20 mile runs at easy pace without my heels ever touching the ground, and no calf or achilles soreness at all.

As for running economy being better when you heelstrike - I think that is more debateable than you describe. All of the so called running methods that are taught now (Chi, Evolution, Pose, etc) I believe claim to have studies that show otherwise. Of course they are promoting a product, but you can find studies to support most any theory. I just think it is not so cut and dried. And there are plenty of very good (fast) runners out there who are forefoot runners, whether they are running at 5:00 pace or 8:00 pace.

Interesting discussion.

I have a very high arch and a very wide forefoot and my basic foot structure prevents me from running/walking on my heel even if I wanted to. As such, I have run on my forefoot my entire life. I certainly agree that the shoes out there today have built up heels and seem to neglect the forefoot runners out there. It's been that way my whole life. I have had calf injuries and have to focus on stretching them regularly.

The foot in question: http://img.photobucket.com/...irr7342/IMG_1129.jpg

My wife always tells me to hurry up when we are walking. I push myself pretty hard when I run but I have no desire to push myself when I'm walking. I think "saunter" is a good pace for me. Besides, my legs are usually too sore from running.

skid777

I agree with you! AND as an example, look at little kids when they take their first steps, have you ever seen them walk heel-toe??? Just think about that, you will see them walk on the BOF. It's once they get into shoes and see their parents walk that they learn this other method. Also, sometime google "origin for heels on shoes" and see what you come up with. It may surprise you

OH my! How scientific. Finn-Bolson Moljer and Root would be rolling in their graves. How about this: children don't have a primarly achilles tendon attachment when they first walk, don't have a subtalar joint, no navicular bone until age 3, no sesamoids under the 1st met head (forefoot) until age 9, etc.

The HAVE to walk like this! They eventually walk "like an adult" when their foot becomes an adults, not because they started wearing shoes! My kids are almost always barefoot (certainly more than they wear shoes) and I just watched my youngest 4 year old heel-toe across my bedroom. This is just like the ancient greeks thinking Appolo carried the sun across the sky because they observed this and had no other explanation. Maybe you should visit a 3rd world country where they don't wear shoes at all and see their development (it has been done ad nauseum). Or perhaps witness the horrible deformity at birth of a clubfoot that cripples children (medically: talipes equino varus) where part of the deformity is the forefoot contracture.

For every odd success story of "training" yourself to run in a particular way (for whatever reason: speed, injury prevention, etc.), there are thousands of "normal" runners (there has to be some sort of defined parameters for normal out there) who are just as fast and/or injury free. In my practice, I see people all the time who try this, and ironically it is because they are trying to prevent injuries (yet end up with one). 4 posters already make reference to their chronically sore calf, achilles tendonitis, etc. Many can adapt just fine. Hell, humans put rings around their neck to stretch it out - we are pretty amazing creatures (but doesn't make it "normal").

This board is a great resource and sounding board for triathletes - I just want some to understand the "western scientific" understanding vs. anecdotal observations. We can't even decide which weel is more aero with exhaustive wind tunnel data (I'm a Zipp man myself :) so I doubt my rantings here will change any grass runners minds :) I'll leave them my card though if necessary ... :)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Doc, one more follow-up and thank you, this is a great thread. I have been working to shorten my stride length in an effort to help my AT problems and it seems to be working. It is hard as I am breaking a 20+ year pattern. I have to really think about it or I revert back-escpecially when I am running faster. The stride just want to back to where it is comfortable. Should I just forget about trying to alter my stride and let it go where it wants to go naturally?

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Well, yes and no. Shortening your stride with a higher turnover and using your hamstrings more is basically the Pose method. This is a very efficient (reportedly) way to run. It most certainly puts very little stress through the calf and uses your body (joints) to run. I try to run this way myself for longer, slower runs. My only problems with this is speed. I can't really seem to go very fast with this "method". Others can. I think it is a great training tool, especially if injured or if you are easily injured.

You already confirmed what part of this thread discussed - when you try to run faster, you "revert" easily back to a long stride length, forefoot landing, etc. This puts a lot of stress through the calf as it recruits it more, but you are much faster this way. Not so effecient though.

My reflex is to say just run more "naturally" for you and don't "force" anything if you are injury prone. Achilles tendon injuries can wipe out an entire season though. Since you have found out what seems to work for, I would concentrate more on cadence and a rapid (90) turnover and see if you can get fast this way (lots of people can) - plus it would greatly reduce your risk of injury.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

You really make me laugh!! Here you are defending heel to toe running, yet you run using the Pose method which is BOF running. Somewhat hypocritical aren't you? By the way, the definition of "normal" seems to be what the consensus of runners do, but the definition of " natural is to run the way nature intended you to run. Consensus does not make it right.

thanks for the site... my calves feel great!!!

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