Was your target audience something other than those who wanted to train with a powermeter?

Best way to know if you're a Cat X/Y type rider? Show up to a group ride with a bunch of X/Y road racers and see if you can hang.

As you mentioned, it's more than just and FTP number...and it's more than just your entire power curve. It's your ability to read other riders, conserve energy and place yourself in the group appropriately, and anticipate the moves. There have been many times on a group ride where I find myself 10th wheel as we approach a sprint point (with certain riders ahead of me), and I'm like..."oh well...I guess I'm not contesting this one" because my positioning has already determined the outcome.

Darren, we just have to make you more aero!

4.0-4.1 w/kg with a FTP around 300w +/- 10w gets me a FOP bike split......Now if I could just learn to run and swim we would be talking!

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

My target audience is never dummies.

BBLOEHR,

You are right on this.

Before buying my tri bike, I did a fit with a very respected fitter. We elected to go with the larger of two frames that fit my profile on the assumption that as I got older (38 at the time) I would want a more upright position that the larger frame would make possible but the smaller couldn't.

Turned out that I really worked on my fitness and flexibility and could now go much lower than my s56 p5 allows.

So right now, I have a possibility of a friend of mine giving me a soon to be released tri version of an existing TT bike. I think the bike is largely in the same category of "aero" as the p5, but I will be able to get a much lower position. In the fit studio, I've ridden the new position for 45 minutes without loss of power or discomfort, so I'm hopeful I could ride that position for a full IM, especially with a period of adaptation to the new fit.

I wear a LG course 2 tri suit, lg p09 helmet, no downtube bottle, and hopefully not doing anything crazy stupid aero wise...but I fully agree I am giving up way too much somewhere. Any thoughts and help are hugely appreciated! I am relatively new to the sport, lucky to have a big engine and real passion and time to train, but I'm sort of a much slower version of Lionel Sanders and learning as I go with a lot of mistakes in the process!

All that means is that your <10s power needs to be improved! Just kidding. Sort of. Mostly though.

Darren, I am almost 39 and have gotten lower each or 5 yrs I have been in this sport, so I might re think who my fitter is if they said as you get "older" you will need a less aggressive position. I also don't think either of us is "old" yet!

You can immediately gain 7.5mm of drop switching cranks to 165 (assuming your on 172.5 now). Sounds like you have most of little details dialed (assuming good tires and latex tubes). But, position is still by a long margin your biggest asset or hindrance / most watts gained or lost with a poor vs great position.

Sounds like you on the wrong frame, so kudos to you for making that connection! First step completed. I think ultimately you are your own best fitter to truly dialed it in. But, use a great fitter to get you 90-95% there. Guess then we could have a fitter debate, lol, there are many great ones here on ST, well worth a drive or flight.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

probably, using what I can see, maybe wrong, plotted numbers that match mine to find some bits I can do Cat 3 and other bits not so good.

This is reflected in bike races. Not sure what the purpose of the table is, without communication of purpose users will find their own

LOL. My 10 second power is just fine for the guys I'm riding with. I'm just realistic that when the guys sitting 2nd through 5th wheel can also throw down 1000+ watts for 10 seconds, and the guys sitting 6th through 9th wheel can't get above 800 watts for 1 second...yeah...I'm screwed. Could I have forced my way up earlier like I should have...sure...but it was a group ride, and not everyone I needed to pass actually races...so I didn't want to do anything dangerous.

So my point was that even if by some chart your power profile is strong enough to compete as a Cat X rider...if you don't know what you're doing, or can't recognize the situation...you might not have as much success as the chart suggests. It's not just in sprints...but how much time you spend at the front, but not so far back that you're closing gaps from weaker riders. Reading the race and the potential attack points. Much more strategic than pure fitness as you know.

The chart isn’t suggesting success ...or suggesting that there isn’t strategy involved in such racing...now you are just misinterpreting it.

One might say that chart is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Exactly

This article (which is a mirror of my original post introducing the tables in 2003) describes their purpose:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/power-profiling/

In particular, note this comment: "the best measure of a rider’s competitive ability relative to that of others is their actual race performance, not their power output."

IOW, if anyone is using the tables to determine how good of a racer they are, they're doing it wrong.

Age groupers in a triathlon should not draft. Who care what a 10 second power is. The bike takes at least 25 minutes.

Thanks for that. Interesting on that table with my profile that I am a Cat 3/C to low Cat B for the longer stuff and more towards cat 3 and 4 for the shorter duration.

This reflects my performance in bike races.

Can you define "dummies" and what you categorise as a performance. Because if fellow posters in a thread count as an audience, I've seen some threads here that seem to put your contention in doubt. ;)

Ah, if only I had him to blame. He too suggested that I go with the smaller frame, but I thought I was being wise by being "conservative." His name is Winston Tam, his FB link is here. https://www.facebook.com/winstontam

He is enormously knowledgeable, experienced, has the tools, and really works hard. Comes out to races to to support riders and just an all around great guy. The fit was over four years ago with a bit of tweaking since then. (at his studio) I will be going back if this new bike offer comes through before I get the frame and doing a full re-working and see how it goes. As I noted, we both really felt that the new fit that's impossible for my current bike was really great. And getting to that position in part stemmed from him getting an electronic Guru fit bike that allowed him to move me around as I rode; I really liked that...we established the basic geometries and were within the "numbers," and then played around till I felt most comfortable and had good power numbers. That said, second opinions are always great ideas, but in Asia....he is the teacher of virtually everyone who does fit...so it's still better to go right to the source.


I'm on 165mm cranks, use conti gp 4000IIs, 25mm on the back, 23mm on the front. Didn't ride latex tubes in Kona this year as I had been getting constant flats on my front 404 with latex and never an issue with butyl, so I stuck with butyl for the race. (I rented the 808s actually and loved them so much I bought them for a great price.) So I will be using latex in training so that I will fee confident for them for my first 70.3 in 2018 in March.

That's what leaves me scratching my head....from my bike, tires, clothes, helmet I'm fairly solid on what I use but my watts do seem high compared to my speed. My VI was very close to 1, didn't bonk and was steady through the whole 180km, the only missed opportunity that I can see was descending Hawi where I decided I wasn't going to risk my finish for a minute or two on the descent by riding full out down.

So I'm excited to see how much I can gain if I can get into a new position. I just am not excited enough/rich enough to spend the money myself to get 5mm lower on the front. Selling a size 56 p5 frame in Taiwan would be TOUGH!

I also need to thank Everyman Jack Team. In 2015 I was coming out of the energy lab together with one of your guys. There was a team support guy on a bike who gave him a quick update and encouragement...drop this guy beside you! We both managed to pick it up, get home at just over 10 hours, and had a great handshake in the finish line. Class act, just as today and your giving me advice on what I can do with my fit. Thank you!

75 kg weight, ftp is 261, so it's 3.48 w/kg.
I've completed 2 half ironmans this year, bike time was 2:28 on both. Total elevation around 800 meters.

Unless someone tries to Jordan Rapp you while you're trying to pass them and you need that 10-second power to avoid a drafting penalty. :)

Dude...you're preaching to the choir. My original post was "Best way to know if you're a Cat X/Y type rider? Show up to a group ride with a bunch of X/Y road racers and see if you can hang." Now you are just misinterpreting what I'm posting. Maybe not your fault since some of my post was snipped.

I proceeded to give an example of how having enough power doesn't always translate to success against certain category riders because other people...not me...as quoted below, were trying to infer that.

Good data Nick, thanks. So I guess I'm a cat 5 bike racer!


4.4 w/kg as a lower level pro here. Glad to see I stack up to some cat 2 talent though!


Hmm on that chart I am a Cat 3 for FT and 5 minutes, sadly for 1 minute and below I am not and am not Cat 3/C

Reflecting that I had power on the chart that matches a cycling grade I don't actually race in. Proving the point that having enough power does not always translate to success.

In addition to tactics and race craft I am lacking on shorter power durations which does not help when trying to stay with moves. Though did work this over the winter riding with higher grade bunches with pros in it and this helped.