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Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim
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Interested to hear what your strokes per second are for 100m swim and 1500m swim. Also would like to know your wing span (even though put height in thread title using it as a proxy for wing span).

Note.....don't care about your strokes per length for this exercise...we can back calculate that from your 100m swim time and strokes rate....but to submit take your 100m swim time (ex 80 seconds) and divide by your stokes (ex 72) strokes, so 1.1 strokes per second.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Wing Span (actually measured) 183mm
100M Free Stroke Rate = 1.69 strokes per second*
100M Free (Long Course) time = 1:03.50
1650y Free Stroke Rate ~ 1.00-1.10 strokes per second**
1650y Free time = 21:17

*Actual stroke rate per video analysis. Using you method (total strokes/time) I get 1.49 because that method ignores time not stroking on starts/turns. I could swim essentially the same race SMC and would come up with an even lower rate.

**Estimated based on actual splits & stroke counts, but estimates of time not stroking during turns.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Wing Span (actually measured) 183mm
100M Free Stroke Rate = 1.69 strokes per second*
100M Free (Long Course) time = 1:03.50
1650y Free Stroke Rate ~ 1.00-1.10 strokes per second**
1650y Free time = 21:17

*Actual stroke rate per video analysis. Using you method (total strokes/time) I get 1.49 because that method ignores time not stroking on starts/turns. I could swim essentially the same race SMC and would come up with an even lower rate.

**Estimated based on actual splits & stroke counts, but estimates of time not stroking during turns.

Agreed, 100m time divided by strokes is not entirely accurate due to push offs especially 25 yd SC vs 50m LC, but it will get most of us close enough...we can jack up by say 10% to get the "real" stroke rate while actual swimming vs push offs.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm 5'6" and I swim fast. (no idea but I have a sort of 'waterbug' stroke - lower than optimal rotation, high stroke rate)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Tigerchik wrote:
I'm 5'6" and I swim fast. (no idea but I have a sort of 'waterbug' stroke - lower than optimal rotation, high stroke rate)

Next time you are at the pool can you count strokes for 100m and your time please? I'll count out the Janet Evans stroke rate for her 400m+ distances for ya!
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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This will be all over the shop due to push off the wall and the fact that I couldn't give a rats arrse about turnover rate apart from getting most power down over a 100m. So being lazy I will give you strokes per length of a 50m pool and you can work out the turnover.
This is slow because I don't really swim much anymore and I am old and lazy enough to get beat by 14 year olds.
I couldn't do those times today, but could last year when I swam last, but still should be useful for your project.

Wingspan 207cm
1500m 36 strokes per lap 1:08 per 100
100m 37 strokes 58s My sprint sucks balls.

!500 is less strokes mainly because I glide into the wall to save energy.
So no real difference in stroke length but rate is slightly higher due to speed.
Glide is shorter and catch quicker and messy as I see bubbles on my left hand during 100m, but extra speed sees similar stroke length even though glide/catch time is shorter.

Sometimes in 1500 I will double breathe, as in breathe both sides of the stroke every now and again.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
This will be all over the shop due to push off the wall and the fact that I couldn't give a rats arrse about turnover rate apart from getting most power down over a 100m. So being lazy I will give you strokes per length of a 50m pool and you can work out the turnover.
This is slow because I don't really swim much anymore and I am old and lazy enough to get beat by 14 year olds.
I couldn't do those times today, but could last year when I swam last, but still should be useful for your project.

Wingspan 207cm
1500m 36 strokes per lap 1:08 per 100
100m 37 strokes 58s My sprint sucks balls.

!500 is less strokes mainly because I glide into the wall to save energy.
So no real difference in stroke length but rate is slightly higher due to speed.
Glide is shorter and catch quicker and messy as I see bubbles on my left hand during 100m, but extra speed sees similar stroke length even though glide/catch time is shorter.

Sometimes in 1500 I will double breathe, as in breathe both sides of the stroke every now and again.

So between your 1500m and 100m you basically keep the same stroke length but your stroke rate goes up by 17 percent. Do you think this is coming by harder pull or a combo of harder pull and harder kick. You 'barely slip' going to the higher speed, or you 'finish' just as far at the end even at the higher stroke rate.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Pull harder, the kick does whatever it needs to balance it.
If I swim 50m, then yes I consciously kick harder, my roll is a little less and there is no glide, the catch happens as quickly as possible if somewhat messy.
50m also creates a quite noticeable wake that I can kick in and the body feels to tip forward and roll downhill.
Kicking is used as a mind trick to key the high turnover, but once out to 100m then I simply do not have the speed/stamina to swim like that, the wake is not big enough to milk energy out of and I basically use the long distance stroke with less glide.

When training I will often put on some flippers to do long distance at race speed and kick just enough to keep the pace at race pace so I can train limb speed for fast swimming but at less exertion and far more time on task that is also race speed specific.
I see no value in slogging out KM's at a slower hand speed as that just trains you to swim slow.
So when not doing intervals and doing a long swim, I like the flippers to keep the muscle speed the same even if just cruising.

Which is one reason why I think pull buoys are plain waste of space for full stroke swimming.
There is nothing that it does that is specific to proper swimming.
It inhibits roll, kicking, makes stupid body position and robs you of the natural feel for body position.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I finish the stroke just as much or even more, the very end of the stroke is the fastest so I never scrimp on it.(easy to tell that just by the water rushing by the ears) That is also why I have a reasonably long glide, don't break the streamline when it is doing me good.
My insweep is probably my weakest portion muscularly, so I get most out the front of the stroke and the back of the stroke.
This I believe is my weakness for faster swimming over 50m.
My body is far better at using lats than chest muscles so I have a high roll to engage those muscles.
Tricep and deltoids also good at the rear of the stroke.
If I were to have become a proper swimmer there would have been big gains for me to get into the gym and get my chest happening better.
As it is, I am a classic 2 peak swimmer with my outsweep/downsweep melded together with a muted insweep and a powerful outsweep/upsweep to finish.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Surely this is all just down to the individual, efficiency and wingspan fair enough but it’s always going to differ massively. For 100m I’d never do more than 19-20 strokes per length but that’s with a decent kick off each length, short course pb 56/high 57 long. 100m is basically a flat out sprint! For 1500 I’d be settled into a steady stroke that I can hold for longer if needed, more like 13 per length and 16 mins 50 pace. After years of not training it’s more like the same stroke rate per length for 100 but 58.5/100 20 mins for 1500, 19 at a push.

As for Tris I don’t think I’ll ever do the swim at more than 70%, it’s just not worth really going for it on the swim so it’s always a steady, long stroke but rarely go below 1.20/100m. Even in sprints that puts me FOP without raising hr too much. Honestly most of the time the swim just seems irrelevant in a tri!
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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managed to find one video of a 100 free I did in 2014. I'm not including starts/ turns.

height 5'10 (wingspan average for my height)

1500m - ~.95-1.05 strokes per second- final time 19:36. (SCM - estimate from a different thread).

100m (LCM - 2014) - 1st 50 - 34 strokes in 24 secs excl start 2nd 50 - 40 strokes in 27 secs excl turn. average rate = 1.45 strokes per sec (1.41 and 1.48) for 51 seconds. Final time 59.90...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Wingspan 207cm
1500m 36 strokes per lap 1:08 per 100
100m 37 strokes 58s My sprint sucks balls.
.

QFT.

1500 is smokin though...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
lyrrad wrote:
This will be all over the shop due to push off the wall and the fact that I couldn't give a rats arrse about turnover rate apart from getting most power down over a 100m. So being lazy I will give you strokes per length of a 50m pool and you can work out the turnover.
This is slow because I don't really swim much anymore and I am old and lazy enough to get beat by 14 year olds.
I couldn't do those times today, but could last year when I swam last, but still should be useful for your project.

Wingspan 207cm
1500m 36 strokes per lap 1:08 per 100
100m 37 strokes 58s My sprint sucks balls.

!500 is less strokes mainly because I glide into the wall to save energy.
So no real difference in stroke length but rate is slightly higher due to speed.
Glide is shorter and catch quicker and messy as I see bubbles on my left hand during 100m, but extra speed sees similar stroke length even though glide/catch time is shorter.

Sometimes in 1500 I will double breathe, as in breathe both sides of the stroke every now and again.


So between your 1500m and 100m you basically keep the same stroke length but your stroke rate goes up by 17 percent. Do you think this is coming by harder pull or a combo of harder pull and harder kick. You 'barely slip' going to the higher speed, or you 'finish' just as far at the end even at the higher stroke rate.

For me I have roughly the same stroke length in a 1500 as in a 100, but how it gets there is different. In the 100 I'm doing a fast 6 beat kick (6 beat generally means slower arm tempo). The 1500 is really a 2 beat, with possibly a couple of extra little flutters in there, I don't really pay attention too much to my kick.

in the 100, legs dictate the turnover. wanna go faster, kick faster and work the pull into it. I don't know if everyone does that or not, it might be because I'm a butterflyer and fly is very much dictated by legs.
In the 1500 it's basically how hard you can pull.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Pull harder, the kick does whatever it needs to balance it.
If I swim 50m, then yes I consciously kick harder, my roll is a little less and there is no glide, the catch happens as quickly as possible if somewhat messy.
50m also creates a quite noticeable wake that I can kick in and the body feels to tip forward and roll downhill.
Kicking is used as a mind trick to key the high turnover, but once out to 100m then I simply do not have the speed/stamina to swim like that, the wake is not big enough to milk energy out of and I basically use the long distance stroke with less glide.

When training I will often put on some flippers to do long distance at race speed and kick just enough to keep the pace at race pace so I can train limb speed for fast swimming but at less exertion and far more time on task that is also race speed specific.
I see no value in slogging out KM's at a slower hand speed as that just trains you to swim slow.
So when not doing intervals and doing a long swim, I like the flippers to keep the muscle speed the same even if just cruising.

Which is one reason why I think pull buoys are plain waste of space for full stroke swimming.
There is nothing that it does that is specific to proper swimming.
It inhibits roll, kicking, makes stupid body position and robs you of the natural feel for body position.

OK, I thought that I was the only other guy on the planet that never uses a pull buoy and would rather use fins to swim "at speed" with proper kick timing/counter balance of the arms.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Is there not something to be said for pull-buoys in relation to building arm strength? Or would you use paddles for that?

I find a pull-buoy helps me focus on my catch & pull, as I'm trying to transform into a high-elbow/early catch pull.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [RonanIRL] [ In reply to ]
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RonanIRL wrote:
Is there not something to be said for pull-buoys in relation to building arm strength? Or would you use paddles for that?

I find a pull-buoy helps me focus on my catch & pull, as I'm trying to transform into a high-elbow/early catch pull.

Sprinting is the best way to build strength, not that we swim with arms, it's the torso that has the power.
It builds strength and speed. Try doing a bunch of long rest 15m flat out.
Pull buoys are for triathletes who think they will never get better and that having a awkward lump of foam between your legs lifting your bum will magically cure you of a crossover kick.

If triathletes spent as much time sculling as they do playing with toys we would only have swimmers and not swimmers and triathletes.
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Ok thanks I'll take you up on your advice. Wiggle do 30-day returns right?!

I'm a sprinter by nature and hate anything above a 100m in practice. Give me 20 x 100m over 4 x 400m any day.

Long-rest 15m sounds like my ideal swim set. What does that look like? I'm in a 50m pool...

I understand the relationship between sprinting and strength, but you don't see Lionel Sanders out on the Velodrome? Should I spend a considerable amount of my sets at race pace (+15% say?) then the rest focusing on breathing/roll/efficiency (sans pull buoy)?
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
RonanIRL wrote:
Is there not something to be said for pull-buoys in relation to building arm strength? Or would you use paddles for that?

I find a pull-buoy helps me focus on my catch & pull, as I'm trying to transform into a high-elbow/early catch pull.


Sprinting is the best way to build strength, not that we swim with arms, it's the torso that has the power.
It builds strength and speed. Try doing a bunch of long rest 15m flat out.
Pull buoys are for triathletes who think they will never get better and that having a awkward lump of foam between your legs lifting your bum will magically cure you of a crossover kick.

If triathletes spent as much time sculling as they do playing with toys we would only have swimmers and not swimmers and triathletes.

hear hear....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Height and stroke rate for 100m vs 1500m swim [RonanIRL] [ In reply to ]
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RonanIRL wrote:
Ok thanks I'll take you up on your advice. Wiggle do 30-day returns right?!

I'm a sprinter by nature and hate anything above a 100m in practice. Give me 20 x 100m over 4 x 400m any day.

Long-rest 15m sounds like my ideal swim set. What does that look like? I'm in a 50m pool...

I understand the relationship between sprinting and strength, but you don't see Lionel Sanders out on the Velodrome? Should I spend a considerable amount of my sets at race pace (+15% say?) then the rest focusing on breathing/roll/efficiency (sans pull buoy)?

Well Lionel was in the velodrome for his bike fit, but that is unrelated to what you are talking about. On the bike there is no technical component in terms of how you pedal going hard and easy and your good leg can turn your bad leg around the circle....biking has zero technical skill. There is a reason real runners do run acceleration and strides. You can train your aerobic engine jogging lots of slow miles but you can't get technically better. My 2 cents is that it is really hard to get the timing for all parts of your body down swimming really really hard or really really really slow without cheating. It's those in between paces (the typical pace of anything above an Olympic tri) where you can get away with all kinds of flaws. This is why you want to do some swimming at both extremities.
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