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swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer
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I am 51 and swim a half in 33-34 minutes and a full in 106-107. Problem is often finding people to draft in current environment of multiple waves of swimmers. I usually start in one of the later waves and end up working my way through a fair number of earlier swimmers but I can't draft them because they are too slow. If I try to book it for the first 100 m I end up hyperventilating and have to slow down. I actually really enjoyed my last mass start iron distance swim this year because there were lots more swimmers to draft. What to do?

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Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [len] [ In reply to ]
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You're not hyperventilating. You're out of breath.

My suggestion is a bit of a cross between the two strategies. You need to try and get out there and draft off of someone because that will make the rest of the swim much more bearable. At the same time you absolutely can't overdo the first part of the race because you'll never go aerobic.

I'd think of strategies to make sure that lactic acid from sudden crazy activity doesn't build up in your muscles during that first rush of the start:

1.) Make sure you are really warmed up. You want to get aerobic asap and that will help.
2.) Pick a way through the group(s) that looks like it will take less energy (maybe swim on the side of the pack?)
3.) Never start fighting -- even figuratively -- with other swimmers.
4.) Learn to back off before you get lactic acid build up going or it will take you too long to get it processed out of your muscles.
5.) Breath. A lot. Remember you aren't hyperventilating and swimming usually gives you less air than biking or running because you have to wait for stroke cycles to get to oxygen.
6.) Never do strokes other than freestyle. They're all slower and more exhausting.
7.) Try to sight as little as possible during the rush. It's exhausting and slowing to sight.
8.) Keep your wits about you. You are resonsible for governing your exertion over those first couple 100 meters.
Last edited by: SH: Oct 30, 17 16:25
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [len] [ In reply to ]
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I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?

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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?

Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Takes less energy to draft off other swimmers. Can go faster and takes less energy. In the end the two minutes probably doesn't make that much difference. But one could make the same argument about training hard I guess. The pointy end of the swim field is more spread out than the bike or run field. Once you lose the front you are not getting it back.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
You're not hyperventilating. You're out of breath.

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Yeah this.

Exacerbated by your tight wetsuit. Start the first 100m or so at a slightly slower pace, not ideal, wait till you feel settled, then work hard to catch the guys you lost at the start and then settle it in. I have a similar issues with breathing/wetsuits feeling panicked/hyperventilating etc no idea what causes it, I've been in the ocean my whole life, surfing, windsurfing, OWS etc But if I start a race sprinting it will hit me like a ton of bricks around the 100m mark, feels like someone is sitting on my chest, slowing down only helps slightly and panic can set in if I'm not careful. Frustrating but I find the above tactic works and allows me to stay in touch with the top guys. I have a couple of theories, one is that I'm excited at the start of the race and forget to breathe out underwater, which I do without thinking when swimming normally, then I become short of breath. Perhaps my body doesn't like the sudden rise in HR? This mostly happens when in a wetsuit, but it has also happened once in a trisuit. Never happened in OWS where the distances I've typically done (2.5km, 5, 10 etc) usually mean slower starts. It is an interesting phenomena that I see people mention and often gets wrongly dismissed as panic, tight wetsuit, attributable to inexperience etc which isn't the case with me.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [len] [ In reply to ]
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Thats not the point.

Sure it's free speed, if it's there. But if it isn't, then you've just gone and made a major pacing mistake looking for something that isn't there, or you aren't really in a position to properly take advantage of.

It seems like you are basing your entire strategy around getting the draft, when really the draft should be a nice bonus.

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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?

Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.

If you are top 10 in the water, then you possess swim skillz which the OP apparently does not, like having "easy speed" at the start of the race.

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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Thats not the point.

Sure it's free speed, if it's there. But if it isn't, then you've just gone and made a major pacing mistake looking for something that isn't there, or you aren't really in a position to properly take advantage of.

It seems like you are basing your entire strategy around getting the draft, when really the draft should be a nice bonus.

It depends. Smaller races, sprints, ODs etc I might be first out the water, so yeah drafting becomes immaterial, but a big race like IM or a 70.3 I am quite focused on drafting. My swim's not going to fall apart if I can't draft, still going to come out 27/28mins, but if there are quick guys on the beach, I'm going to stalk them. I don't see what's wrong with that tactic.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?


Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.

Top 10 OA or in your AG??? I guess this might depend on the size of the total field in the race???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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But are you going to go completely anaerobic to get those feet? If you don't get them, what then? What if no fast swimmers show up?

The OP is describing a lack of feet to draft as a "problem". My view is that they are nice to have, but your race shouldn't be dictated by getting on those feet.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Oct 30, 17 20:09
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
But are you going to go completely anaerobic to get those feet? If you don't get them, what then?

Yeah I get your point and no I wouldn't. I made a bit of a error at a 70.3 in May, got stuck behind a few people who started fast then slowed, by the time I got around them, the lead guys were 30M+ away, worked hard for a few minutes trying to catch them to no avail so ended up slowing and was by myself for most of the swim.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
zedzded wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?


Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.


Top 10 OA or in your AG??? I guess this might depend on the size of the total field in the race???

NO AG not OA. And field sizes vary, last December I was 3rd out the water, but field was only 70/80, in May 70.3 field was 200 and 17th out water. Made a few mistakes in that race. I swam as a kid, but I was the slow kid in the fast lane or the fast kid in the slow lane ( I can't remember which) there are usually one or two guys in my AG who were gun swimmers back in their prime and I normally try to latch onto their toes, but as Jason pointed out trying to be careful not to go anerobic. Which is something I need to consider for my next race in 6 weeks. Start is rolling and off a jetty, plan is go in at the same time as some of the top AG swimmers and see if I can hang on. They'd be 23 - 25min swimmers I'm 26 - 28. So I need to be careful that I don't go too hard trying to stay on their feet. I suppose it's a little bit risky.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
zedzded wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?


Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.


Top 10 OA or in your AG??? I guess this might depend on the size of the total field in the race???


NO AG not OA. And field sizes vary, last December I was 3rd out the water, but field was only 70/80, in May 70.3 field was 200 and 17th out water. Made a few mistakes in that race. I swam as a kid, but I was the slow kid in the fast lane or the fast kid in the slow lane ( I can't remember which) there are usually one or two guys in my AG who were gun swimmers back in their prime and I normally try to latch onto their toes, but as Jason pointed out trying to be careful not to go anerobic. Which is something I need to consider for my next race in 6 weeks. Start is rolling and off a jetty, plan is go in at the same time as some of the top AG swimmers and see if I can hang on. They'd be 23 - 25min swimmers I'm 26 - 28. So I need to be careful that I don't go too hard trying to stay on their feet. I suppose it's a little bit risky.

So, if your next race is in 6 weeks, that's December and there are very few triathlons in the U.S. that time of year. JOOC, are you an Aussie or a Kiwi, or???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
zedzded wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
zedzded wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?


Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.


Top 10 OA or in your AG??? I guess this might depend on the size of the total field in the race???


NO AG not OA. And field sizes vary, last December I was 3rd out the water, but field was only 70/80, in May 70.3 field was 200 and 17th out water. Made a few mistakes in that race. I swam as a kid, but I was the slow kid in the fast lane or the fast kid in the slow lane ( I can't remember which) there are usually one or two guys in my AG who were gun swimmers back in their prime and I normally try to latch onto their toes, but as Jason pointed out trying to be careful not to go anerobic. Which is something I need to consider for my next race in 6 weeks. Start is rolling and off a jetty, plan is go in at the same time as some of the top AG swimmers and see if I can hang on. They'd be 23 - 25min swimmers I'm 26 - 28. So I need to be careful that I don't go too hard trying to stay on their feet. I suppose it's a little bit risky.


So, if your next race is in 6 weeks, that's December and there are very few triathlons in the U.S. that time of year. JOOC, are you an Aussie or a Kiwi, or???

Strayan
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [len] [ In reply to ]
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You appear to be about the same speed as i am.

I practice swim starts by running out and taking ~100 fast strokes. If a draft is there I'll take it, if it isn't i just swim strong for the rest of the race.

The key for me is to practice some starts a few times early in the season.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
I am 51 and swim a half in 33-34 minutes and a full in 106-107. Problem is often finding people to draft in current environment of multiple waves of swimmers. I usually start in one of the later waves and end up working my way through a fair number of earlier swimmers but I can't draft them because they are too slow. If I try to book it for the first 100 m I end up hyperventilating and have to slow down. I actually really enjoyed my last mass start iron distance swim this year because there were lots more swimmers to draft. What to do?

It sounds like your swim fitness is poor and you don't practice the specificity of mass starts.

How much do you swim a week and how often do you work on race take out speed then settle into endurance pace?

I agree with the strategy of going out harder for 100m and then taking a draft if one is there, otherwise swim on your own. Remember for the most part you have no idea who these other guys are. Can they sight well? Can you trust them to maintain the high pace throughout? For your swim speed I would say most likely not. Now guys who are swimming 25-27 min, yes if they find a draft, that guy can probably be trusted.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [len] [ In reply to ]
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Let me try to give you my 2c. I am not much better than you, 29min HIM/58min IM. These times occurred in different years.
There is never a reason for any AG athlete to go anaerobic in the swim. Not at the start, not ever. Some will justify it to get some clear water. The cost of that is immense and affects your race downstream.
But if you are smart, you will line up properly where you belong by pace, you will start your race very controlled and aerobic, never gasping for air and you can line up on a random pair of feet and let that person clear your way for the first 300-400m, go easy.
After that, come around the feet if the pace proves too slow and work it yourself for a bit.
Shortly you will start to see the same cap and pair of arms next to you swim stroke for stroke your pace. That is the person you want to slip down and line up on the feet. That is your pace with 20% less effort. Conserve. You want to sight as often as you need even on the feet as you want to assure that the person can hold direction and is taking you to the right place. Don't just put your head down and be dragged zig- zagging.......
Bridging and sprinting is reserved for PROs. They train that way, they can take it. Far too many AGers have a great swim, sprint, bridge, draft, bridge......have a great bike, way overbike than roll into the run for actual walking. The error actually started with the swim, once you go high aerobic and anaerobic, you burn your matches and you never come down. Those are the race reports where peeps wondered why their HR was so high on the bike and they just held their intended FTP percent power calculated for the race......wrong on many levels.
If you cannot draft, swim your own race. Control the effort that you never gasp for air. Gasping for air at any point is a direct sign you are cooking your swim up. Swim in IM is long enough to ruin your race on a typical AG swim fitness.
Just my 2c. Many will poke holes in what I just wrote here. That is how I race and I am 46, self taught AOS.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
zedzded wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
zedzded wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess the obvious question, to me at least, is why are you letting other athletes dictate your race? Why does your race outcome hinge so much on finding a pair of feet to draft?


Why not? It's free speed. I would normally be out in the top 10, but I'd be making sure that I'm lining up next to the top swimmers in my AG on the beach and I'm going to let them do most of the work. In fact drafting in the swim is something that often gets mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to give it much attention or recognise it as a way of saving a lot of energy. Squad swimming the other day, I ended up behind someone and it never seems to surprise me how much less energy you need to sit on someone's toes. We were sitting on 1.20 pace (metres) and it felt like 1.40 pace. There needs to be much more emphasis on drafting in the swim.


Top 10 OA or in your AG??? I guess this might depend on the size of the total field in the race???


NO AG not OA. And field sizes vary, last December I was 3rd out the water, but field was only 70/80, in May 70.3 field was 200 and 17th out water. Made a few mistakes in that race. I swam as a kid, but I was the slow kid in the fast lane or the fast kid in the slow lane ( I can't remember which) there are usually one or two guys in my AG who were gun swimmers back in their prime and I normally try to latch onto their toes, but as Jason pointed out trying to be careful not to go anerobic. Which is something I need to consider for my next race in 6 weeks. Start is rolling and off a jetty, plan is go in at the same time as some of the top AG swimmers and see if I can hang on. They'd be 23 - 25min swimmers I'm 26 - 28. So I need to be careful that I don't go too hard trying to stay on their feet. I suppose it's a little bit risky.


So, if your next race is in 6 weeks, that's December and there are very few triathlons in the U.S. that time of year. JOOC, are you an Aussie or a Kiwi, or???


Strayan

Outstanding, it's great that we have people from all over the world on this forum, to avoid a totally U.S.-centric perspective. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
Let me try to give you my 2c. I am not much better than you, 29min HIM/58min IM. These times occurred in different years.
There is never a reason for any AG athlete to go anaerobic in the swim. Not at the start, not ever. Some will justify it to get some clear water. The cost of that is immense and affects your race downstream.
But if you are smart, you will line up properly where you belong by pace, you will start your race very controlled and aerobic, never gasping for air and you can line up on a random pair of feet and let that person clear your way for the first 300-400m, go easy.
After that, come around the feet if the pace proves too slow and work it yourself for a bit.
Shortly you will start to see the same cap and pair of arms next to you swim stroke for stroke your pace. That is the person you want to slip down and line up on the feet. That is your pace with 20% less effort. Conserve. You want to sight as often as you need even on the feet as you want to assure that the person can hold direction and is taking you to the right place. Don't just put your head down and be dragged zig- zagging.......
Bridging and sprinting is reserved for PROs. They train that way, they can take it. Far too many AGers have a great swim, sprint, bridge, draft, bridge......have a great bike, way overbike than roll into the run for actual walking. The error actually started with the swim, once you go high aerobic and anaerobic, you burn your matches and you never come down. Those are the race reports where peeps wondered why their HR was so high on the bike and they just held their intended FTP percent power calculated for the race......wrong on many levels.
If you cannot draft, swim your own race. Control the effort that you never gasp for air. Gasping for air at any point is a direct sign you are cooking your swim up. Swim in IM is long enough to ruin your race on a typical AG swim fitness.
Just my 2c. Many will poke holes in what I just wrote here. That is how I race and I am 46, self taught AOS.

I agree with your points save the assertion that you want to find someone your pace and then latch on to them with 20% less effort. Why not find someone 20% faster than you that you can draft with your race pace effort? That way you're swimming at your max, but within yourself and clocking a time beyond your ability. On the other hand, I can see the danger in going out to hard as the OP mentions, and burning matches and not finding good feet. Is there any strategy that splits the difference between those two?

"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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My experience has been that majority underestimate how much it takes out of them to go with faster feet. Specifically so when peeps swim 2-3x week to the tune of 8-9k. That is not enough to let you get away with miss judgement. Anyway, I don't disagree with you. Just playing it safe for OP. You have 100+ miles to fix your error of swimming too easy in IM.
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Re: swim strategy for pretty good not great swimmer [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Outstanding, it's great that we have people from all over the world on this forum, to avoid a totally U.S.-centric perspective. :)

Yeah it is :)

I've noticed the forum changes slightly depending on the time, 8am GMT the British wake up and start posting 12pm the Mericuns start up then the Antipodeans a wee while later :)
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