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Adjustable cranks with power meter?
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As I continue to work on crank length, one possibility may be one length for a flat course, and one length for a hilly course. Who knows.

But, after racing today, it would be neat to have a power meter on the bike to see what is happening, plus HR, RPM.

So, does anyone make adjustable cranks with power meters on each crank? Or is the only easy way is to get a power tap wheel?

Or how about pedals? Anything work with my speed play pedals?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Oct 22, 17 13:18
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
As I continue to work on crank length, one possibility may be one length for a flat course, and one length for a hilly course. Who knows.

But, after racing today, it would be neat to have a power meter on the bike to see what is happening, plus HR, RPM.

So, does anyone make adjustable cranks with power meters on each crank? Or is the only easy way is to get a power tap wheel?

Or how about pedals? Anything work with my speed play pedals?

SRM makes a pair. They’re super affordable.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
As I continue to work on crank length, one possibility may be one length for a flat course, and one length for a hilly course. Who knows.

But, after racing today, it would be neat to have a power meter on the bike to see what is happening, plus HR, RPM.

So, does anyone make adjustable cranks with power meters on each crank? Or is the only easy way is to get a power tap wheel?

Or how about pedals? Anything work with my speed play pedals?


SRM makes a pair. They’re super affordable.

Do you consider 2500 bucks affordable?

Too bad the power meters for shoes did not make it. That would have been cool!

It is only money, right? :(

Thanks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I think your best bet is a powertap wheel. You could try looking through DC rainmaker's power meter guide to see of there is anything unusual, but I can't think of anything crank based that would work and there aren't any pedal options that work with speedplays, everyone who has tried has failed.

If you haven't replaced your broken disc wheel, this could be a good opportunity to do that. A decent rear wheel with a powertap hub and a disc cover will be almost as fast but also cheaper and lighter, even with the powertap hub.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I think your best bet is a powertap wheel. You could try looking through DC rainmaker's power meter guide to see of there is anything unusual, but I can't think of anything crank based that would work and there aren't any pedal options that work with speedplays, everyone who has tried has failed.

If you haven't replaced your broken disc wheel, this could be a good opportunity to do that. A decent rear wheel with a powertap hub and a disc cover will be almost as fast but also cheaper and lighter, even with the powertap hub.

Yep, really would like something that is independent of the cranks since kinda a pain to replace.

I have not replace my broken disc. I raced today without the front 808 also since that was a no no. :(

I really do not want to buy any wheels until I upgrade to 11 speed, and ideally disc wheels. This stuff is just too expensive to buy, IMO, old technology.
I guess if I could find a used cheap 10 speed powertap wheel, maybe this would allow me to start getting more data as I make the changes to my bike style.

Thanks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Your best bet is a powertap wheel (check eBay for used G3s, I see them for $300 all the time). Pedal based PMs will work too but there are no Speedplay based PMs and I'm not aware of any in development.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You are not going to answer any questions regarding proper crank length range by the methods you describe. Here is what you need to know. I realize this is a waste of time, but here it is:

1. The only way to intuitively understand the benefits of shorter cranks is to have a competent fitter utilizing proper equipment take you to the limit of your current crank length before making a change. In other words, if your fit is not at least in the ballpark of optimized, you probably won't notice much, or even worse, you might have a different experience than if you were close to optimal.

2. When done as described above, about 80-90% of riders are going to prefer a crank length from .5 to 1.5 cm shorter than what would typically come on a stock bike in their size.

3. Many of the things previously mentioned are important, especially riding a lower / more aero position, but the first thing the fitter and rider need to determine is "Do you prefer this?". It is the same question asked when seat height, setback or drop is changed.... How does this effect your intuitive sense of pedaling? After which, we can look at the power, how much drop you can ride, etc. First is always rider feedback.

4. There is no perfect crank length, or if there is I don't know how to find it. I do know how to find an acceptable range for a given rider. Acceptable here is synonymous with appropriate, and NOT the same thing as aggressive. The #1 thing I look at is how close to the FIST described 100 degrees of hip angle can we achieve with this rider? Is their lack of mobility or excess belly fat getting in the way of this angle? If we have a lean and reasonable limber rider who just can't seem to pedal effectively when we dip below 105 degrees of hip angle, crank length absolutely becomes the prime suspect.

5. Crank length is often the most important metric I change for riders under 5'6" or so. The majority of these riders are what I term "massively over-cranked". These riders typically reduce crank length from 1-2cm, with the shortest commonly available length of 145mm (Cobb) being frequently used for riders under 5'3".

6. Generally, not one watt is gained or lost from a crank length change. Now if the crank was so long that it was basically contributing to a lousy fit, sure, we will probably find some power, but that is more a function of fixing the overall fit. This leads me into one of the final points...

7. Crank length is not fundamental to your bike fit. Seat height, setback, reach to bars, drop to bars ARE your bike fit. Nail those four and you've got a fit. Saddle selection, aerobar shape/tilt/width, crank length, cleat position etc are all secondary factors. Crank length is probably the most important secondary factor for the majority of riders, right up there with saddle selection. What this means is that if we determine 160mm is in your ideal range, your bike fit still exists on 175mm cranks. Saddle height will change, drop will change, set back will change and even reach may change with the less optimal length, but the fit isn't ruined by the wrong cranks. If cost is an issue, we adjust the saddle, ride a bit less drop and advise to change the cranks when you can.

8. Adaptation time for changes in crank length is about 3-5 minutes.

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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
You are not going to answer any questions regarding proper crank length range by the methods you describe. Here is what you need to know. I realize this is a waste of time, but here it is:

1. The only way to intuitively understand the benefits of shorter cranks is to have a competent fitter utilizing proper equipment take you to the limit of your current crank length before making a change. In other words, if your fit is not at least in the ballpark of optimized, you probably won't notice much, or even worse, you might have a different experience than if you were close to optimal.

2. When done as described above, about 80-90% of riders are going to prefer a crank length from .5 to 1.5 cm shorter than what would typically come on a stock bike in their size.

3. Many of the things previously mentioned are important, especially riding a lower / more aero position, but the first thing the fitter and rider need to determine is "Do you prefer this?". It is the same question asked when seat height, setback or drop is changed.... How does this effect your intuitive sense of pedaling? After which, we can look at the power, how much drop you can ride, etc. First is always rider feedback.

4. There is no perfect crank length, or if there is I don't know how to find it. I do know how to find an acceptable range for a given rider. Acceptable here is synonymous with appropriate, and NOT the same thing as aggressive. The #1 thing I look at is how close to the FIST described 100 degrees of hip angle can we achieve with this rider? Is their lack of mobility or excess belly fat getting in the way of this angle? If we have a lean and reasonable limber rider who just can't seem to pedal effectively when we dip below 105 degrees of hip angle, crank length absolutely becomes the prime suspect.

5. Crank length is often the most important metric I change for riders under 5'6" or so. The majority of these riders are what I term "massively over-cranked". These riders typically reduce crank length from 1-2cm, with the shortest commonly available length of 145mm (Cobb) being frequently used for riders under 5'3".

6. Generally, not one watt is gained or lost from a crank length change. Now if the crank was so long that it was basically contributing to a lousy fit, sure, we will probably find some power, but that is more a function of fixing the overall fit. This leads me into one of the final points...

7. Crank length is not fundamental to your bike fit. Seat height, setback, reach to bars, drop to bars ARE your bike fit. Nail those four and you've got a fit. Saddle selection, aerobar shape/tilt/width, crank length, cleat position etc are all secondary factors. Crank length is probably the most important secondary factor for the majority of riders, right up there with saddle selection. What this means is that if we determine 160mm is in your ideal range, your bike fit still exists on 175mm cranks. Saddle height will change, drop will change, set back will change and even reach may change with the less optimal length, but the fit isn't ruined by the wrong cranks. If cost is an issue, we adjust the saddle, ride a bit less drop and advise to change the cranks when you can.

8. Adaptation time for changes in crank length is about 3-5 minutes.

Thanks, agree with the comments.

A couple of things I might have felt.

I had a crappy bike fit. It is getting better. After todays race, going to raise it even more.

Going down from 200's has helped me a lot I think from being able to push the pedals better, whatever that means.

But, as I am going through the test process, I am finding interesting data, as posted in my other thread, about HR vs crank lengths vs rpm.
So it may not be 100% crank length is ONLY fit. Since most folks/fitters would never spend the time I am spending, let alone having the equipment
to do the testing I am doing, not sure how anyone can say their may be more to crank length than just fit.

As Sutton said, he believes most folks race at too high an RPM. As I have now raced my last two races around 70, vs the 90's I used to spin, it is interesting how the bike feels. Not enough data points yet, but gathering.

Since my bike fit, I am a lot better positioned than I was. Seat way back, shorter cranks, and higher seat.

I do admit having more stuff to check power, hr and rpm on the bike while racing would be nice now. :(

Again, all great inputs, and I do like the one that shorter folks have probably been on longer cranks which has not been the best for their fit.

I am going to copy, assuming it is okay, your comments to the other thread I have done on crank lengths, since yours is the most detailed one I have seen yet.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Your best bet is a powertap wheel (check eBay for used G3s, I see them for $300 all the time). Pedal based PMs will work too but there are no Speedplay based PMs and I'm not aware of any in development.

At those prices, will have to keep my eyes open. Thanks.

Now, would there interface with a smart phone now? Ideally I would like to use my Note 8 as my head unit. I have now been using it with Strava when I run and ride the bike since it records great info, and it uploads when I am done without extra work.

Thanks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Does the Note 8 have Ant+? If so, then yes. If not, you'll just have to get the Bluetooth radio cap for the G3. It's a two minute install if you can change a wheel quickly ;)
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Now, would there interface with a smart phone now? Ideally I would like to use my Note 8 as my head unit. I have now been using it with Strava when I run and ride the bike since it records great info, and it uploads when I am done without extra work.

Thanks

According to the ANT+ consortium (https://www.thisisant.com/directory) your Note 8 has an ANT+ radio in it, meaning it can communicate with Powertap wheel no problem. Back when I used a Samsung Galaxy I used an app called ipBike (http://www.iforpowell.com/...ndex.php?page=ipbike) which is great. Not the easiest thing to get going, but once you've got it set up it will give you all the data you want during your ride and upload to Strava no problem. It's actually the only app I really miss after switching to the fruitarian side.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Now, would there interface with a smart phone now? Ideally I would like to use my Note 8 as my head unit. I have now been using it with Strava when I run and ride the bike since it records great info, and it uploads when I am done without extra work.

Thanks


According to the ANT+ consortium (https://www.thisisant.com/directory) your Note 8 has an ANT+ radio in it, meaning it can communicate with Powertap wheel no problem. Back when I used a Samsung Galaxy I used an app called ipBike (http://www.iforpowell.com/...ndex.php?page=ipbike) which is great. Not the easiest thing to get going, but once you've got it set up it will give you all the data you want during your ride and upload to Strava no problem. It's actually the only app I really miss after switching to the fruitarian side.

Come to think of it: the Strava mobile app (which is a feature limited piece of garbage when used as a head unit) may actually be able to talk ANT+ as well. Too lazy to look it up right now, but I seem to remember it does. And while it is, as I said, a piece of garbage, it's easier to get started with than ipBike. You will want to rip your phone off your bike and throw it in the river before your first ride with it is over though, if you're anything like me.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
Richard Blaine wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Now, would there interface with a smart phone now? Ideally I would like to use my Note 8 as my head unit. I have now been using it with Strava when I run and ride the bike since it records great info, and it uploads when I am done without extra work.

Thanks


According to the ANT+ consortium (https://www.thisisant.com/directory) your Note 8 has an ANT+ radio in it, meaning it can communicate with Powertap wheel no problem. Back when I used a Samsung Galaxy I used an app called ipBike (http://www.iforpowell.com/...ndex.php?page=ipbike) which is great. Not the easiest thing to get going, but once you've got it set up it will give you all the data you want during your ride and upload to Strava no problem. It's actually the only app I really miss after switching to the fruitarian side.


Come to think of it: the Strava mobile app (which is a feature limited piece of garbage when used as a head unit) may actually be able to talk ANT+ as well. Too lazy to look it up right now, but I seem to remember it does. And while it is, as I said, a piece of garbage, it's easier to get started with than ipBike. You will want to rip your phone off your bike and throw it in the river before your first ride with it is over though, if you're anything like me.


Thanks, I will take a look.

When I get my hexagon camera, it also is supposed to have an app to interface with my phone. This stuff is SO much fun. And if I can get it working for a race, :)

Will have to check that I can get this working with my Garmin sensors instead of my Garmin Edge 705

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: Oct 22, 17 17:53
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Will have to check that I can get this working with my Garmin sensors instead of my Garmin Edge 705

Most/all phone head units want to use your GPS position for speed. Cadence sensor should work, but if you decide to get a Powertap that will give you cadence as well, so no need for extraneous sensors on your bike. HR strap is obviously still necessary, and I know for a fact that the Strava app will not talk to an ANT+ (Garmin) strap, only to Bluetooth straps. With ipBike you can use your Garmin strap though.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Will have to check that I can get this working with my Garmin sensors instead of my Garmin Edge 705

Most/all phone head units want to use your GPS position for speed. Cadence sensor should work, but if you decide to get a Powertap that will give you cadence as well, so no need for extraneous sensors on your bike. HR strap is obviously still necessary, and I know for a fact that the Strava app will not talk to an ANT+ (Garmin) strap, only to Bluetooth straps. With ipBike you can use your Garmin strap though.

Interesting. I use my polar strap for my bike and treadmill. I really would like to use a wrist device for hr and ideally it would transmit to my trainer treadmill and phone but this maybe asking too much. At least on the bike when i am racing or training outside

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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For free!!!

http://wattagetraining.com/files/JMartinCrankLengthPedalingTechnique.pdf



Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Kiwicoach wrote:
For free!!!
http://wattagetraining.com/files/JMartinCrankLengthPedalingTechnique.pdf

Great stuff. Thank you.
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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Kiwicoach wrote:
For free!!!

http://wattagetraining.com/files/JMartinCrankLengthPedalingTechnique.pdf


Hold on, are you suggesting that Dave and frank aren’t the first ones to do this research and maybe also pointing out the crank length optimization is a bit of a myth beyond bike fit??
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Re: Adjustable cranks with power meter? [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]
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OMFG... it took me like 2 seconds to find the source of this article by googling "crank length".
I was totally going to jump on my $10,000 velotron and do a n=1 experiment to settle this once and for all. I think I'm going to move on to other important issues like platform pedals vs clipless, tubular vs clincher and figs & bananas vs gels


Kiwicoach wrote:
For free!!!

http://wattagetraining.com/files/JMartinCrankLengthPedalingTechnique.pdf


Last edited by: sp1ke: Oct 23, 17 7:24
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