Trail running to help 2nd half IM run?

Aug 7, 17 10:10

Post #1 of 15 (1650 views)

Curious what people think about throwing in trail running to specifically help with the fatigue encountered in the end of an IM run? I mean relatively technical trails with a lot of up and down. I have found no matter how good of run shape I am in, long trail runs thrash my legs until they get used to it and then are much more resilient with regard to pounding. Since IM running is not fast and more of survival at a relatively easy pace, would this make sense even for a flat course?

My motivation behind this Q is that I come from a running background and just blew up bad in my first IM. My feet, front of shins, calves etc cramped VERY bad at mile 15 and I was forced to walk jog in. I biked at less than 0.7 ftp so I don't think it was ovebiking. Ate 300 cal/hr on bike and 150ish on run.

These muscles have never given me even a small issue in all my training (including 5-6 hour ride + 10 mile bricks). I was running within myself the first half at 7:45s, but once those muscles gave out and entered cramp city it was all I could do to keep 12min walk/jog pace. I am in sub 1:15 half marathon shape (open) so I don't think it is a run fitness issue, hence why I am questioning leg resiliency (if you get what I mean by that).

fwiw, this experience was very humbling to say the least and I really don't want to go through it again.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 17 10:27

Post #2 of 15 (1632 views)

I can't answer you on the trail running thing, but blowing up like that on an IM run is related to nutrition and bike fitness. Depending on what your bike training has been like, even 0.65IF might be "overbiking".

Your nutrition, on the surface, seems OK but how do you rally know? Maybe you needed more than 300/hr? Also what did you do about salt intake? You need a surprising about of salt to get through an IM run without cramping, or at least I do. Gatorade doesn't have nearly enough.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [g_lev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 17 11:22

Post #3 of 15 (1586 views)

I hear you on the nutrition. Only salt on ride was 3 bottles of gatorade endurance (not enough). I had 2 rolls of saltstick chewable on the run. Can it be as simple as having more salt on the bike and I don't blow up? Seems almost too easy. I hope this is it.

For overbiking, my FTP in aero is 275W give or take but more importantly I had 5+ 5 hour rides at 200W NP that I always ran off of no problem. I rode 170W in the race because I didn't feel great and went on feel instead of number chasing so I didn't blow up the run >.<

I am 5"10' 140 pounds for reference.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 17 11:30

Post #4 of 15 (1567 views)

I'm just curious as to how many miles/wk you were riding and running in your last 8 weeks or so. I'm 10 wks out.

Thanks.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 17 11:38

Post #5 of 15 (1557 views)

ntc wrote:

I hear you on the nutrition. Only salt on ride was 3 bottles of gatorade endurance (not enough). I had 2 rolls of saltstick chewable on the run. Can it be as simple as having more salt on the bike and I don't blow up? Seems almost too easy. I hope this is it.

For overbiking, my FTP in aero is 275W give or take but more importantly I had 5+ 5 hour rides at 200W NP that I always ran off of no problem. I rode 170W in the race because I didn't feel great and went on feel instead of number chasing so I didn't blow up the run >.<

I am 5"10' 140 pounds for reference.

So this is entirely anecdotal, but for me I find that if I almost overload on salt during the bike I can avoid cramps on the run even late in the game. I keep a tube of Base Salt with me and make sure to get some in every 5 miles or so on the bike, and while running I get some just before every aid station. I used to cramp up a ton late in the race, but since adopting this salt protocol I have not. I would say it was a fitness thing as I am much more fit now than I was in past races, but I can tell you that even during a recent 100 mile ride where I forgot to bring salt I was all crampy 70 miles in. Salt, for me, seems to make a ton of difference.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [nc452010] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 17 11:43

Post #6 of 15 (1550 views)

Below are my average totals for the 8 weeks before a 2 week taper.

Run - 38 mi/week, 4.5 hours/week, peak 52mi

Bike - 180 mi/week, 10 hours/week, peak 290mi

Swim - 12,000 yard/week, peak 17,000 yards

Last edited by: ntc: Aug 7, 17 11:53

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 7, 17 11:59

Post #7 of 15 (1526 views)

ntc wrote:

Below are my average totals for the 8 weeks before a 2 week taper.

Run - 38 mi/week, 4.5 hours/week, peak 52mi

Bike - 180 mi/week, 10 hours/week, peak 290mi

Swim - 12,000 yard/week, peak 17,000 yards

I hope it's not fitness-related, then :)

Last edited by: nc452010: Aug 7, 17 12:00

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 8, 17 18:23

Post #8 of 15 (1352 views)

bump, really looking for feedback on this!

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [nc452010] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 5:32

Post #9 of 15 (1278 views)

nc452010 wrote:

ntc wrote:

Below are my average totals for the 8 weeks before a 2 week taper.

Run - 38 mi/week, 4.5 hours/week, peak 52mi

Bike - 180 mi/week, 10 hours/week, peak 290mi

Swim - 12,000 yard/week, peak 17,000 yards

I hope it's not fitness-related, then :)

Those 8 weeks look like solid volume for the top of an IM build but the real question is what have you been doing for maybe the past 2 years. Maybe 3? More than anything I find that it's not the last handful of peak weeks that make the difference in how well you run at the end of an Ironman, rather how much volume and experience you have going back a few years that really makes the difference.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 6:36

Post #10 of 15 (1242 views)

spoken by a well known and regarded tri coach

"trail running is the single best workout for IM marathon performance"

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [g_lev] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 6:52

Post #11 of 15 (1225 views)

Good point, thanks. I come from a running background since I was 10. I am 30 now. Ran XC and 5k/10k in college with 15:00/31:15 PRs. A lot of 80-100 mile weeks but 70 was probably average when not hurt (max 120). Didn't do much for 4 years after school due to a chronic injury (gone now).

Started MTB in 2015 and somehow that fixed my injury. Started more serious biking January 2016 and swimming July 2016 and slowly upping my run volume.. Before this race I had done 3 sprints, 1 LD (Santa Barbara Tri), 1 HIM. Stats below. Writing this out leads me to believe I'm still a total noob at this stuff and just need to keep at it. 2015 stats were really eye opening...

2017 so far:
Bike - 4000 mi
Run - 1000 mi

2016:
Bike - 4500 miles,
Run - 581 miles

2015:
Bike - 600 mi (mostly mtb)
Run - 200 mi

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 7:07

Post #12 of 15 (1209 views)

I trained for an ultra during the buildup to an IM so I would run the trails on Saturday and then bike long on Sunday. I had about 8 or 9 weeks after the ultra before the IM when I recovered for 2 weeks and then started my normal IM training.

You mentioned you are a runner, my question is how many stand-alone marathons have you done? Plus how long(years) have you been biking?

I feel IM 2nd half run is a lot about experience. I never really found my sweet spot until my 3rd IM personally and even then the last 8 miles is a SLOG.

As for cramping, there's a lot of great advice already given but as for muscle soreness, did you run race flats? The IM marathon is different than the stand-alone as you're going slower and your form is probably compromised sooner. It might make sense to use your everyday training shoe and suffer the extra 3-5 ozs for example.

The negatives from trail running your long IM training runs are a possible injury(ankle, muscle tweak from a weird step, etc), not really having a good "feel" of pace, and losing some speed(which could be rectified by doing a tempo or intervals during the week).

The positives are increasing leg strength(helps the bike), easier on the joints, and perhaps just better well-being from being off the road.

Good luck...

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 7:46

Post #13 of 15 (1176 views)

Trail running is going to provide a lot of benefits to your overall running ability. It forces your body to use stabilizing muscles and strengthens connective tissues that don't normally get recruited on road runs. And running hilly terrain on trails builds leg strength - working quads, calves, and gluteal muscles more than running on flats.

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Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 8:10

Post #14 of 15 (1156 views)

ntc wrote:

bump, really looking for feedback on this!

-------------------------
The feedback is that you are a noobie. Solid trainly, solid background, just need experience at long distance race execution. We could give tips all day long, but you need to experience and feel it and devise an execution plan that works for YOU. Is trail running good, sure. I don't think that was your issue though. Also, I predict good things in the future for you!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Trail running to help 2nd half IM run? [ntc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 9, 17 20:34

Post #15 of 15 (1077 views)

Just don't get injured. I got more and more into running trail to break up the monotony of training and rolled my ankle hard on a root on a fairly technical descent. Now I'm rehabbing it and shedding hard earned run fitness.

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