I appreciate your feedback, for my friend.

It's really interesting that a manufacturer can profit from a retailer but the consumer that ultimately bought the new product is somehow at fault... for buying a product the manufacturer profited from.

So folks, if you're going to go into manufacturing, sell through non-authorized dealers in another country and you have zero liability when your product structurally fails. It's a great way to earn repeat customers and that one thing, what's it called? oh yeah, a brand.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

But you don't actually know the chain of commerce in this instance. You don't know if 3T is the actual manufacturer, and assuming they are you don't know who the part was originally sold to. Maybe it was Wiggle. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe Wiggle buys closeout parts or excess inventory from some other parties. You say 3T is profiting directly from Wiggle, but you don't know that.

And here, the consumer who bought the product bought that product under very specific terms and conditions, which pretty plainly leave the buyer with no practical remedies. The consumer is "at fault" for the purchasing decision, absolutely.

No different than if a consumer chooses a cheap XTERRA wetsuit that falls apart the first use instead of spending more on a top-of-the-line Roka wetsuit that has been perfect for two seasons now. I'm talking about me now. I chose Xterra, because they have good marketing, and I didn't know any better, and that was my purchasing decision. They didn't stand behind what was clearly their defect, and sure I could have taken it pretty far, but it was less time and money to just make a better purchasing decision. Roka has enjoyed many purchases from me in the past couple of years, and Xterra is a joke.

I'm pretty sure that when this product was purchased, like most sales, the price was attractive and that was the selling point. No questions were asked about the provenance of the part, no one read any warranties or terms and conditions, I'd bet it was just price and shipping and click click done. That was the purchasing decision that was made, it was the consumer's choice, and the consumer needs to accept responsibility for that.

Of course Wiggle could handle it differently. That's on them. And maybe 3T handled it just they way they prefer: make an authorized purchase and if you don't then don't come crying to us when there is a problem.

Victim blaming much?

Citing "specific terms and conditions" to justify fucking the customer is something only lawyers and assholes do. Based on your user name and your post, seems you are both.

Thanks again. And I agree - I don't buy from Wiggle. But the friend, he sees a 3T part that broke, not a Wiggle part. And with direct sales being a present reality, it can't be expected that the consumer 'learns' the path of the product. Rather, that's on the manufacturer and 3T thinking it's not on them, adhering to what will very soon be an antiquated business model, if it isn't already, well that's not good for their brand. If I'm a manufacturer, I want to be able to ensure people who buy my product are supported, hence the reason you can't easily find Trek, Cannondale, Cervelo, Specialized or Canyon bikes for sale online on 3rd party sites - they take the time to monitor where there products are sold so this scenario doesn't happen. My friend won't ever buy 3T again. I stepped in thinking 3T would save the day, or at least see to it that Wiggle would get it done. Rather, they appear to see the consumer as a PITA because the consumer liked their product and found the best price online, and that's some sort of sin. I don't think that's a sustainable business model, blaming the customer for finding the best price. I'm not convinced that 3T did not profit somewhere along the way - if someone bought a crap ton of 3T armload cradles and then sold them to Wiggle, 3T still profited. If Wiggle, the largest online retailer, is selling counterfeit 3T products, that's on 3T to monitor the marketplace and prevent Wiggle from doing so because innocent consumers will pay the price - this throwing up of the hands and implicitly denying responsibility is just not sustainable and comes across as boldly apathetic. The Xterra analogy falls short because the friend didn't buy $10 T2+ plastic Profile Design cradles, he bought brand new $150 3T carbon cradles. Your analogy would work if someone bought a marginally cheaper Roka wetsuit on Wiggle, it tore and Roka and Wiggle left the consumer high and dry for two months - I don't think they would do that. They would at least look at the suit to see if it's covered under warranty; that small step hasn't even been completed in this case.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Victim blaming? A contract victim? What are you crying about? Being asked to take responsibility and hold up your end of a bargain is making someone a victim? A victim of what? Being a grown up and keeping their word?

If keeping your word makes you a victim, then your word is worthless. If that makes me an asshole, I can live with that, because at least I am responsible for my own actions and I can keep my word when I make an agreement.

Here, the buyer's word was to only make the purchase if all of the stated terms and conditions were agreed to. And if you don't get that, then you can't get anything.

don't shoot the messenger! He's just explaining 3T's rationale, the legalese they're hiding behind. It may be more just to say that the legal terms set the stage from the time of purchase for victim-blaming. And that's my point: is setting that stage, choosing that business model, is that good or bad for the brand?

Stan and others see the manufacturer as innocent as Goldilocks (breaking and entering lil sh@t, more like it).

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Nevermind, seeing his last post, just nevermind

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

As my Dad taught me, if it seems to good to be true, then it probably is.

When a price seems pretty good, I make sure I know who I am buying from and what I am getting. Some "part" is not the only thing I am getting. Reputation, service, warranty, and so on is also something I am buying. That's how I make consumer decisions when I care about money I am spending. When I don't care, and something goes wrong, sometimes I look into it and most of the time I don't. It's only money and I make that decision.

While I don't learn the path of the product, I certainly learn who I am buying from and what I am buying. When I buy from Amazon, I know that no matter what Amazon will stand behind the product. Amazon knows the thousands of dollars I spend every year with them. Case in point. I bought a tacx neo last December. It died within 30 minutes of use or something like that. Amazon sent me a new one, no questions asked. When the next one died in an hour, I was a little miffed, and I went straight to Tacx. We went around and around and they sent me a new one directly from Tacx. Good for them. But they didn't have to and I knew Amazon would handle it anyway. I got lucky with Tacx. I don't shy away from telling people the product failed twice, but I also point out Tacx came through and the third one is still working.

You don't know what 3T is thinking. They haven't told you. It could easily be they don't care because it wasn't an authorized purchase, and it could just as easily be they think Wiggle is handling it, and it could just as easily be lost in the shuffle of life and no one at 3T really has eyes on it. Unless 3T tells you, and it is a person in a poisition to be telling you, then you don't really know.

As for my Xterra analogy, it was their top of the line wetsuit at the time. It was defective. There's a whole story there. But let me go at it like this. I bought a "new" 3T aero bar off ebay, half of what it costs retail, it was boxed "new" and it came with everything any new retail purchase would have and looking that way. I can see it was never installed and the packaging sure looks new, but I don't really know. People can be really good at such stuff. I know I was taking a chance with the purchase and if that Revo aerobar fails, I'm not going to complain that the Revo is a top of the line product and it should have top of the line coverage and response from the company. I'm going to accept responsibility for the purchase I made, the consumer decisions that I made. 3T profited somewhere on that purchase, but I know I made a purchase not covered by a warranty, unforgivable defect or not.

Have you made a telephone call (or calls) to Wiggle or 3T and spoken with the person who can give you the answer? I think I read all the posts, but truthfully I skimmed a lot, so I might have missed the phone calls part.

First: your response to Kiley was painfully black and white, but your responses to me see the grey areas. Maybe you have a "friend" too....?

The Neo story: bingo. Tacx stepped in. Was that good or bad for their brand?

eBay story: Wiggle is not eBay, not even close.

I've spoken on the phone with two 3T employees and messaged with one of them as recently as today. They're fully aware of this situation and have not responded. The last response I received was on the phone before I created this thread in which the employee was painfully apathetic when I let him know Wiggle had dropped the ball.

I've spoken by phone to 3 Wiggle employees and emailed with 4 Wiggle employees. They have not responded in roughly a month, now.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

The ebay purchase is exactly the same. I purchased from an unauthorized dealer. Apparently your friend did too. The only relevant difference is that I know I made an unauthorized purchase and was perfectly willing to take a chance. Your friend didn't know if the purchase was from an authorized dealer and I'm sure he didn't think he was taking a chance.

But, every website has terms and conditions. His purchase came with terms and conditions that said, in effect, don't buy if you don't agree. And if you read it, it says we accept returns, and we will handle it, and if you aren't satisfied we have online dispute resolution that apparently does t apply to you. Oh by the way, if you want to sue us, we're in England and English law and courts apply to the purchase.

It doesn't mean necessarily that 3T is off the hook. Just practically speaking they are. It's a $150 part. Now, if they were making airbags that were killing people, we'd be having a different conversation. Obviously. But it's a carbon part, and its used for racing, which raise all kinds of legal issues. Anyway, your state may have consumer protection laws that give you, err your friend, important legal rights. Some states have powerful consumer protection statutes. What state are you in. Err, your friend.

Just calling out the bullshit for what it was.

Counterfeit??? When a price is so low on a product, fair possibility it is.

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

Much appreciated. The friend is in VA. I'm in PA.... it's complicated.

hmmm, I don't know if I see ebay and Wiggle as the same. I see your black and white authorized-dealer point, but ebay is a platform for independent sellers to sell through... and, if the part broke upon the 2nd use of the product, I know for a fact that ebay would swiftly take care of the issue, seeing to it that the buyer was refunded or the part was replaced; I know that for a fact.

will be interested to see your thoughts on the VA state laws.

I didn't see Kiley's response as bullshit. Sure, victim-blame away. Blame the customer. Feel good about it. But, when you're the manufacturer doing that blaming, is that the best move for your business? I really don't think it is.

I'm not saying every company should pull a Tacx; I'm not convinced that is a great business decision, swooping in and fixing every wrong and never letting the consumer handle some of the responsibility, but there's middle ground. And that's the point, find the middle ground. That's good for building a brand. And note, the friend was asking for the aluminum cradles as replacements, not the carbon cradles. He wanted safety after he avoided crashing at 26+ mph when the carbon cradles broke. I mean, that seems like some good middle ground: 3T, you didn't a sh*t job monitoring who sells your high end products. A customer avoid a possible catastrophic crash when your product failed, he wants a dirt cheap replacement part and he's willing to take the time to communicate with you multiple times about the warranty procedure, he's willing to ship the part back to Wiggle for inspection, he provided you with clear images showing the product failure..... but their response was 'sorry, there's nothing we can do.' So, why would I buy a Strada, now? serious question; I was genuinely planning to make the Strada my next road bike. Why-tf would I do that now? What, because I'm buying it through an authorized dealer? Really? Why would I buy a second set of THM cranks? Why would I advise more friends to purchase 3T products, as I had advised this "friend"?

So sure, as a manufacturer, victim-blame away, great business strategy. I'll have to pair up with my economic and strategy phd counterparts to write a business case study on this wonderfully effective strategy. Maybe we can create a strategic stakeholder quandrant with CSR (corporate social responsibility) in one corner, and ACVB (apathetic consumer victim blaming) in the opposing quadrant...

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I'll slot that into that ACVB quandrant.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Maybe eBay would take care of it, maybe not. Don't be so sure about that. The point is, 3T would most likely treat my purchase the same way your friend's purchase was treated. If not an authorized purchase, then no manufacturer warranty.

Virginia has a pretty strong consumer protection act from what I just read. Seems to have been modeled after California's consumer legal remedies act. https://law.lis.virginia.gov/...umer-protection-act/

I see nothing excluding the transaction on its face, but you'd need someone who practices in Virginia to tell you about the finer details of Virginia law.

And Kiley's response was bullshit. It isn't victim blaming to say you made an agreement to accept Wiggle's terms and conditions when you made the purchase nor is it victim blaming to say a manufacturer warranty is limited by the company to authorized purchases.

If you buy something on eBay and it is Significantly Not As Described, they will make the seller give you a full refund and pay for return shipping.

as I learned this past summer...

Update: communicated with Dave. He immediately said he'd reach out to Wiggle. I should have stayed in contact with him, I think, and not have taken or accepted the communication from the confident and apathetic employee who answered the phone the second time I called. I trust Dave will resolve the situation and I greatly appreciate that; and resolve doesn't mean just free product - read my previous posts before assuming entitlement.

For the dozens of posters who blasted the buyer for buying from Wiggle. You were wrong; your self-righteous life-lesson filled victim blaming was dead wrong. Wiggle does purchase through an authorized distributor. So there's a life lesson tossed back in your direction. But I trust people will still find a way to blame the buyer for their purchasing decision, their faulty supposed torque wrench, counterfeit products, this thread, for following warranty protocols, for communicating a persistent amount with the manufacturer and retailer prior to me starting this thread, and, of course, claiming my "friend" is me talking in the third person - I'm ok with that latter one and won't go above and beyond to dismiss it; it's true gold coming from Stan.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Thanks Dan. I tend to side with the OP and if 3T America was the distributor with the parts in stock this would be resolved quickly. Since we don't have the parts we need and ordering them would be the same fulfillment channel and timeline as Wiggle ordering (or shipping) them we're going down that path. In an odd coincidence our distributor in the UK has changed from iRide to Saddleback so the outgoing supplier has no parts and presumably less interest in managing to source a replacement and the new distributor is waiting on their first shipment of 3T products (I leave Sunday to go to Bristol to conduct some training there).

It's an exceptional case with unfortunate progress to date. I'm working the avenues I know with the resources I have to solve it as quickly as I can. I'm absolutely willing to step in and take the blame on behalf of 3T, Wiggle, etc. If I could make this go away with an overnight package of $100 aerobar parts I would have.

We don't take any customers for granted and the normal flow solves these cases 99.9% of the time with a swift and agreeable outcome.

-Dave

p.s. thanks for notifying me of this thread's existence.

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Thank you very much, Dave. Your response is spot on and I appreciate it.

I'll also take blame: I should have communicated with you directly a second time by phone and asked for you when I called 3T the 2nd time rather than speaking with someone new at 3T, taking his response as representative of the company and stopping there in terms of my dealing with 3T, at which point I started this thread and only continued my communication with Wiggle until they stopped providing email responses. As soon as I PM'ed you via ST last week, you responded immediately and said you'd reach out to Wiggle. Thank you.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I just received an email from the math professor friend saying he just received a full refund from Wiggle. Thank you Dave for taking care of this quickly relative to me PM'ing you this past Saturday, September 2nd over the holiday weekend.

And thanks Dan for tolerating this post.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I'm relieved the outcome was favorable but I'm certainly not going to use this case as an example of exceptional customer service. I apologize on behalf of Wiggle and 3T for the duration that the resolution was pending.

It is not up to me to set my customers' needs and expectations, it's up to me to meet or exceed them.

-Dave

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era