Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times?

May 21, 17 14:41

Post #1 of 22 (3608 views)

Let me start off my saying that I'm not a great swimmer. I couldn't swim a stroke until about 4 years ago (when I turned 50) but by getting to my local pool 2-3 times a week, I've improved quite a bit.

My issue that although I post respectable times in the pool, I never come close to replicating it in a race.

Here's the most recent example. I did a tri today with a 0.75 mile swim leg (I know, weird distance). So last Thursday, I timed myself over 0.75 miles in my pool. For added realism, I even wore my wetsuit!

In the pool, I clocked just over 24 mins (and this is the kind of pace I do regularly in the pool). Today, in the race (a reservoir swim), I did 38 mins.

And I've seen similar discrepancies before. I can comfortably do 1500m in under 30 mins in the pool but I've never broken 39 mins in an OWS.

So what's happening?

One obvious difference is push offs from the wall. I swim in a 25 yard pool and do touch turns (I've never mastered flip turns). So I guess I take a "micro-break" every 25-30 seconds.

Could this be my problem? Should I try to master flip turns? Or do something else?

I've also noticed my stroke rate is a bit slower in the OWS - about 62 in the pool, about 56 in the open water. Not sure why this is.

Anybody got any ideas?

Anything I can be doing in the pool to better replicate the OWS experience?

Couple of notes. First this not a case of OWS panic. I've done 15+ races now and I'm totally comfortable in the open water.

Also, I don't get much OWS practice - would love to get more but there aren't many options in my area. Similarly, I'd love to swim in a 50 yard pool but there aren't any.

Appreciate your thoughts - thanks!

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 17 14:54

Post #2 of 22 (3593 views)

Waves, sighting, and how slow of a stroke rate you have w/ the wetsuit are a few thoughts that come to my mind. When I first started, it was tough to get used to the tightness of a wetsuit so my stroke rate was super slow. Once I got comfortable with keeping the same rate, I got a lot faster!

Sighting also used to slow me down because I would stop swimming when doing it. Now I sight as I take a stroke/breath and it's all together as one without slowing down. It's hard to say without seeing you, but these are a few things that I can think of.

Waves and current also play into it.

Also, without OWS practice it's really hard to get used to it. Why not find a friend and go together on your own? Or race more often? When first getting into tris, I just raced a bunch to get the initial build up of experience. By a bunch, I was racing every month for a while and traveling to races all over. Doesn't work for everyone but that's one fast way to get comfortable with it!

Last edited by: daswafford: May 21, 17 14:56

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 17 16:49

Post #3 of 22 (3421 views)

Sighting and swimming straight.

You sound like you suck like me. In the pool I can hold a straight line since the black line on the bottom allows me to correct while still holding my head down. I pull to the left because I have a stroke that crosses the middle line.

In the open water, I sight too much because if I don't, I end up way off course. Problem is, I also sight poorly so my head comes up too high and I'm sure this drops my legs.

Result? Drag, no streamline, and swimming extra yards.

Last edited by: DJRed: May 21, 17 17:09

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 17 16:50

Post #4 of 22 (3419 views)

For me this seems to be a function of warmup/course vagaries

I basically give up, it's a crap shoot. If I don't get in the water before the event, I'm going to have a bad time also ESP. If the water is cold

I about 2-3 minutes slower in an oly tri vs a pool/long course 1500m. My lessor performances are in the +4-5 min range.

Sometimes I get a little off course and take the wiiiide way around the course since the water is clearer there. Don't be afraid to bump into people is my advice--if you're a mid packer on the shortest path you trade elbows. It's ok

For me it was learning my particular problems which are performance when cold--I don't do well in 50/low water

//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 17 17:13

Post #5 of 22 (3390 views)

Mis measured swim course as well as other thoughts mentioned.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 17 5:26

Post #6 of 22 (3148 views)

I am no fish but have been trying long enough to agree with what others have said. My best OWS was after the most open water practice I ever had in a season. I was ocean swimming a bunch on top of pool stuff. Intervals in the pool, long stuff outside. I came to realize that for me anyway sighting was and is everything. End of last year I raced in a lake in shitty conditions, chop, swells and wind. It was a small field on a two lap full course so pretty much swimming alone for 2.4 miles. Everyone was slowed by the conditions but relatively speaking I had a good swim leg. I may never be fast but dead on straight makes up for a lot of other flaws. I have to sight often unless I can catch feet.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 17 5:58

Post #7 of 22 (3101 views)

Pool swimming vs open water swimming is a lot like running on the track vs running a road race. Everyone is faster on the track.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 17 6:20

Post #8 of 22 (3074 views)

I have only just got the whole open water thing nailed. Stuff that helps me:

1 Get in the water before the start. This is the single biggest thing. Particularly if the water is cold and the air temp is warm.
2 Shorter harder intervals in the pool. If you have poor wetsuit flexibility you have to work harder for a given speed. Shorter harder intervals, lots of them, really helped me here.
3 Are you kicking too much? At your swim speed, (not dissimilar to mine) just don't bother kicking in a wetsuit swim. My legs hinder rather than help.
4 Are your feet not pointing back, are they pointing down? As you're concentrating on loads of other things, are you forgetting to do that? Lots of drag there.
5 Practice sighting in the pool. Even if it's just the rhythm of it.

Everyone has their own problems, but I just did a 35:54 70.3 swim, a new PB by over 2 minutes.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [stevej] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 17 10:26

Post #9 of 22 (2931 views)

stevej wrote:

Pool swimming vs open water swimming is a lot like running on the track vs running a road race. Everyone is faster on the track.

True IF the road race is accurately measured. IME, most tri swims are not accurate but rather tend to be short, as my OW times are generally faster than my pool times. I've only been slower than my pool time in maybe 15% of the 110 or so triathlons I've done. Also, I'm rarely drafting anyone so that is not why I'm faster. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 17 13:44

Post #10 of 22 (2802 views)

Do flip turns and also swim with your eyes closed from after you push off until you feel you're a few strokes from the upcoming wall. The pain of jamming your fingers into the lane rope a few times will straighten you out quickly.

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Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]

May 22, 17 16:32

Post #11 of 22 (2725 views)

It's the 25yard pool, short course pools are incredibly easy to swim in compared to a LCM pool or open water. I swam a 25m indoor pool last winter and was smashing 100s under 1;20, went back to my regular 50m pool when it warmed up and the build up of lactic acid was way higher because of less rest on the turns, was swimming over 1;30 pace.

Last edited by: TriguyBlue: May 22, 17 16:33

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [stevej] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 14:25

Post #12 of 22 (2482 views)

stevej wrote:

Pool swimming vs open water swimming is a lot like running on the track vs running a road race. Everyone is faster on the track.

I disagree, my open water times have been faster last few Ironmans then my 4k pool swims. In fact the draft affect for a race, plus a wetsuit should make anyone faster.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [CP78] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 14:39

Post #13 of 22 (2470 views)

I agree with you, my OWS times are consistently better than my pool times. The wetsuit helps correct my (terrible) form, I'm comfortable drafting, and I swim straight/sight relatively well.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 15:12

Post #14 of 22 (2451 views)

Besides all the obvious differences that everyone here has pointed out, it is pointless to compare your OW race times since you really don't know how long they really were. And forget about Garmin reports on what it says you swam, they are not accurate enough either for comparison sake.

So even if you accounted for the 6 or so variables that differentiate OW to pool, it would be pointless to compare since you really don't know what the actual distance was in the OW. It is kind of like measuring aero advantages in cycling, you can add it all up and come up with some number that you should be faster, but race day conditions, course measurements, and terrain are going to throw a monkey wrench into any results.

SO what you should focus on is just getting faster in the pool, the walls and clock do not lie or fool you. And then work on all that other stuff for the OW and just know if implemented correctly, it will also make you faster in races comparatively.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [CP78] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 15:51

Post #15 of 22 (2433 views)

CP78 wrote:

stevej wrote:

Pool swimming vs open water swimming is a lot like running on the track vs running a road race. Everyone is faster on the track.

I disagree, my open water times have been faster last few Ironmans then my 4k pool swims. In fact the draft affect for a race, plus a wetsuit should make anyone faster.

Are you really trying to compare a non wetsuit, no draft pool swim to a wetsuit, possible current aided, and with drafting open water system?

That's like comparing a road bike to a tri bike.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [monty] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 16:01

Post #16 of 22 (2424 views)

Even if the garmin was accurate to a gnats testicle, it still wouldn't reflect the actual swim distance due to currents.

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Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [stevej] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 16:02

Post #17 of 22 (2424 views)

stevej wrote:

CP78 wrote:

stevej wrote:

Pool swimming vs open water swimming is a lot like running on the track vs running a road race. Everyone is faster on the track.

I disagree, my open water times have been faster last few Ironmans then my 4k pool swims. In fact the draft affect for a race, plus a wetsuit should make anyone faster.

Are you really trying to compare a non wetsuit, no draft pool swim to a wetsuit, possible current aided, and with drafting open water system?

That's like comparing a road bike to a tri bike.

Exactly. I thought you were. OP said his race, open water swim times are always slower than his pool times You said pool is always faster using a track analogy. I said a race is always faster because races almost always have a wetsuit (at least in the U.S.) and there is a strong draft affect. Seems to be a miscommunication here...or you thought the OP swam a race with no wetsuit or other people....

Last edited by: CP78: May 25, 17 16:03

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [smallard] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 19:00

Post #18 of 22 (2364 views)

My closest result was from an oly, pool 24:12 to OWS 25:22 in nearly perfect conditions and sighting as sharp as possible. My biggest gap was a 2000m 32:39 pool and 39:37 OWS in rough conditions and poor sighting and a surf finish with a run across shallow water, a bank, back into shallow water. I agree with above that sighting and the way the course is measured will have a big impact. If you aren't taking the straightest line from buoy to buoy, you're adding unnecessary distance. Try sighting in the pool the same as in a race, check how pronounced your technique is, if your hips are sinking and slowing you down a lot each time you sight. The obvious thing is your stroke rate. If your stroke length stays the same, but your rate decreases, then you'll go slower, so I'd be thinking about why your rate drops and working on that. I don't think the way you turn at the end will contribute in any significant way.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [monty] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 20:06

Post #19 of 22 (2330 views)

monty wrote:

Besides all the obvious differences that everyone here has pointed out, it is pointless to compare your OW race times since you really don't know how long they really were. And forget about Garmin reports on what it says you swam, they are not accurate enough either for comparison sake.
So even if you accounted for the 6 or so variables that differentiate OW to pool, it would be pointless to compare since you really don't know what the actual distance was in the OW. It is kind of like measuring aero advantages in cycling, you can add it all up and come up with some number that you should be faster, but race day conditions, course measurements, and terrain are going to throw a monkey wrench into any results.
SO what you should focus on is just getting faster in the pool, the walls and clock do not lie or fool you. And then work on all that other stuff for the OW and just know if implemented correctly, it will also make you faster in races comparatively.

Monty - I think the best way to gauge one's performance in an OW tri swim is to compare your time to the very fastest swimmer's time. Generally speaking, he/she will be capable of 17:00-17:30-ish for 1500 scm (on race day, not 10-15 yrs ago in college)(also, I'm thinking of non-ITU races here, as the ITU top guys can prob go 16:00-16:30 on race day, if in an all-out pool swim) and you can gauge how fast you were on the day by what % slower you were. Occasionally, you'll get a ringer like when Sheila Taormina, way before she ever took up tri, swam on a relay at the U of GA Tri when she had just come back from winning the 200 free at the NCAA D1 nationals; in this race, she had the fastest 1500 m of any swimmer, male or female, by about 1:00, but she was prob capable of a 16:30 1500 scm on that day. I found out who she was after the race, when a few of us were cooling down in the lake, and she was there with the rest of her relay. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 20:29

Post #20 of 22 (2323 views)

Monty - I think the best way to gauge one's performance in an OW tri swim is to compare your time to the very fastest swimmer's time.//

You probably already know this, but I always gauge every swim on what the winners do. Get their times, evaluate their abilities, and I can come up with how far everyone swam(as a function of time) within 50 to 75 yrs. It is nice to have some GPS measured distances from static points with reliable inputs(boats as opposed to an actual swimmer) but they will usually be worse of only just as good as using my lead swimmer formula. And it is not just the winner, you use the lead groups, breakaway swimmers, and even the Womens times.

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [monty] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 17 20:50

Post #21 of 22 (912 views)

monty wrote:

Monty - I think the best way to gauge one's performance in an OW tri swim is to compare your time to the very fastest swimmer's time.//

You probably already know this, but I always gauge every swim on what the winners do. Get their times, evaluate their abilities, and I can come up with how far everyone swam(as a function of time) within 50 to 75 yrs. It is nice to have some GPS measured distances from static points with reliable inputs(boats as opposed to an actual swimmer) but they will usually be worse of only just as good as using my lead swimmer formula. And it is not just the winner, you use the lead groups, breakaway swimmers, and even the Womens times.

Ya, I thought I recalled your saying this before; glad to know we're on the same page here!!!

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Why Don't My OWS Times Match My Pool Times? [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]

May 30, 17 10:02

Post #22 of 22 (845 views)

TriguyBlue wrote:

It's the 25yard pool, short course pools are incredibly easy to swim in compared to a LCM pool or open water. I swam a 25m indoor pool last winter and was smashing 100s under 1;20, went back to my regular 50m pool when it warmed up and the build up of lactic acid was way higher because of less rest on the turns, was swimming over 1;30 pace.

I've mistakenly assumed gym pools were 25 yards only to have them really be closer to 22-23 yards. Been burned by that more than once over the decades.

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