Help analyze my half-marathon results please

May 9, 17 13:00

Post #1 of 23 (3673 views)

Ran a half marathon this past weekend after training pretty steadily for about 30 weeks. I bought a Jack Daniels program (18 week) and stuck to it pretty well and even had a few months of consistent 20-25mi week running all easy before I started the program. My VDOT estimate was 38.xx and I was running 4x week for the entire 18 week program maxing out at around 30 mi/week.

The VDOT program estimated my time to be 1:55 and I ended up with a 1:49 which tells me I had underestimated my VDOTmax for the plan.

49 yo male 220 lbs 6'4". I really wanted to get down to 205-210 (from 228) but it just didn't happen.

I started the race with the 1:45 pacer and hung with that group for 8 1/2 miles after which I faded back and just hung on to finish just under 1:50/8:20/mi pace. 53rd /345 in my AG. I took this approach to push myself and see where I landed. The conditions were perfect 50 degrees and minimal wind. Flat course.

My new VDOT based on my time is 40.82.

Here are my splits off my garmin:

mi 1- 7:53 avg bpm 170/ bpm max 185
2- 8:11 177/185
3- 8:14 180/186
4- 8:06 180/190
5- 8:02 182/190
6- 7:41 182/189
7- 7:56 183/192
8- 8:14 184/191
9- 8:36 183/188
10- 8:23 182/191
11- 9:07 181/187
12- 9:12 182/188
13- 8:35 186/197

So basically it looks like I red-lined my HR the entire race. My Garmin shows I was Z5 the entire race. I think I could have been around 1:45 if my weight was at 210 or lower. Who knows.

I don't know how I can be any faster at this weight so I am going to focus on weight loss for a month while I incorporate my swimming and biking plans.

Can anything else be inferred from my results? Thanks

Last edited by: 1xatbandcamp: May 9, 17 13:11

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 17 13:14

Post #2 of 23 (3650 views)

As a bigger guy when I was starting out (started doing halfs at 230, full at 220), here are my thoughts:

It looks like your pacing as ok, if a little scattered. I wonder if you went a little bit too hard keeping up with the 1:45 pacer. Then, around that 10 mile mark, I'd wonder if you started bonking and needed some nutrition.

Taking a gel before the start and one at 5 has helped me on halfs. slightly longer spacing for fulls.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [freightrain121] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 17 13:28

Post #3 of 23 (3621 views)

Doesn't seem like the advice needs to be rocket science...
It is very simple

Run more
Loose weight

Once you are less than 200lbs and can run 40 mpw- come back and ask about pacing, training, etc.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 9, 17 13:48

Post #4 of 23 (3576 views)

You say you where Z5 all the way. What's your Z5 limits? From your results your zones seems to be off. What do you use for threshold hr and maximum hr?

Personal best:
Ironman 9:22:02
Ironman 70.3 4:20:00

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [teinvall] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 13:31

Post #5 of 23 (3400 views)

The results of this have certainly changed how I look at my HR zones. I previously thought my max HR was 185 but I ran most of my race in the low 180's and got into the 190's during few sections.

This seems too high to me for my age. I felt very comfortable for the first 8 miles and then it became increasingly harder to maintain the 8 min/mi pace the 1:45 pacer was keeping. I took in a sip or two of Gatorade on the course at each aid station. I don't think I bonked from lack of calories. Maybe I needed a gel-not sure.

I do know for sure it would help me to lose weight so that is my focus for the next several weeks.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 20:27

Post #6 of 23 (3291 views)

Well done.

Run more.

Base HR zones off real data (220-age has a huge error margin)

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 20:56

Post #7 of 23 (3261 views)

You dropped off because of your MPW. If you weighed less I'd say you could have probabaly rolled the 1:45 pacer and might have held on depending on experience and pain threshold but 30 mpw just isn't enough.

Your long run should be 30 percent of your weekly mileage and with that you're not even at the full half distance. That mileage is really more of a complete vs compete plan. Like one of the other posters said, run more run more and run more. The weight will come off with that and you'll have significant gains.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 20:58

Post #8 of 23 (3257 views)

When I was in my 20s, my heart rate was always around 189 beats per minute when running.

I am almost 52 now and am running at 178.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 21:00

Post #9 of 23 (3255 views)

1xatbandcamp wrote:

Ran a half marathon this past weekend after training pretty steadily for about 30 weeks. I bought a Jack Daniels program (18 week) and stuck to it pretty well and even had a few months of consistent 20-25mi week running all easy before I started the program. My VDOT estimate was 38.xx and I was running 4x week for the entire 18 week program maxing out at around 30 mi/week.

The VDOT program estimated my time to be 1:55 and I ended up with a 1:49 which tells me I had underestimated my VDOTmax for the plan.

49 yo male 220 lbs 6'4". I really wanted to get down to 205-210 (from 228) but it just didn't happen.

I started the race with the 1:45 pacer and hung with that group for 8 1/2 miles after which I faded back and just hung on to finish just under 1:50/8:20/mi pace. 53rd /345 in my AG. I took this approach to push myself and see where I landed. The conditions were perfect 50 degrees and minimal wind. Flat course.

My new VDOT based on my time is 40.82.

Here are my splits off my garmin:

mi 1- 7:53 avg bpm 170/ bpm max 185

2- 8:11 177/185
3- 8:14 180/186
4- 8:06 180/190
5- 8:02 182/190
6- 7:41 182/189
7- 7:56 183/192
8- 8:14 184/191
9- 8:36 183/188
10- 8:23 182/191
11- 9:07 181/187
12- 9:12 182/188
13- 8:35 186/197

So basically it looks like I red-lined my HR the entire race. My Garmin shows I was Z5 the entire race. I think I could have been around 1:45 if my weight was at 210 or lower. Who knows.

I don't know how I can be any faster at this weight so I am going to focus on weight loss for a month while I incorporate my swimming and biking plans.

Can anything else be inferred from my results? Thanks

how have you determined your heart rate zones?

congrats on the effort. but your are limitting yourself by two things.. weight and volume. decrease one and increase the other and you will improve drastically I predict.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 21:03

Post #10 of 23 (3254 views)

Yep, another victim of the "Train harder, but don't train long" fad.

Grant.Reuter wrote:

You dropped off because of your MPW. If you weighed less I'd say you could have probabaly rolled the 1:45 pacer and might have held on depending on experience and pain threshold but 30 mpw just isn't enough.

Your long run should be 30 percent of your weekly mileage and with that you're not even at the full half distance. That mileage is really more of a complete vs compete plan. Like one of the other posters said, run more run more and run more. The weight will come off with that and you'll have significant gains.

Last edited by: windschatten: May 10, 17 21:04

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 21:17

Post #11 of 23 (3242 views)

pretty much, I get people are time limited and there is nothing wrong with that but it becomes a lot harder to maintain pace at lower mileage.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 17 21:37

Post #12 of 23 (3228 views)

As others have said, your mileage was just too low.

That said, you went out way too fast. Maybe if you had gone out 10 seconds/mile slower the first 8 miles, you wouldn't have faded so much the next 5. Miles 1 and 12 show a 60 second difference means you didn't just fade...you nearly collapsed. Did you do any swimming and biking also during this run block?

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 4:00

Post #13 of 23 (3078 views)

High HR, but you sustained it just fine it looks like. I don't get too wrapped up in HR in a race. Races are won by people who go the fastest, not hold the lowest HR. Some people have a natural ability to hold higher HR (or more likely just have higher HR). I'm not one of those people - always had a low HR and never been much of a sprinter. Best I can sustain is a moderately high HR.

But that also comes down to training. Down the rabbit hole I go............squeak

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 5:31

Post #14 of 23 (3003 views)

I am going to take the contrary view. If you lose 20-30 lbs with the same training you could go 145. Last year I did 146, 147 and 148 off of 20 miles a week max. I am 6'1'' and weighed 175 at the time. For someone almost 50, 30 miles a week is a fair amount of volume. Risk of injury does go up with more volume. 20 extra miles a week only burns an extra 2000 cal a week which you could easily out eat. You have to eat less to lose the weight.If you lose the weight and then want to go faster increase the volume then. If you are lighter less risk of injury

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 5:31

Post #15 of 23 (3003 views)

2 months + 18 weeks is about half a year. You don't mention exercise history before this but it reads like it isn't that much. But that is great. 6 months is a commitment to do something that is hard work and you've done it. Not many people will get close to their potential in 6 months. The other thing you mention is a month of concentrating on weight loss. That is also great. But together they sound like short to medium term stuff. In reality endurance sports need long term commitment. These sort of short/medium term things are great if that is what motivates you but they need to be parts of a longer term thing. Particularly when you mention diet. A month on weight loss could be helpful. Good luck. But the real gain is a shift to a healthy diet that you can maintain and that, with consistent exercise, will gradually see you improve. It all snowballs. So keep going. Keep at it, keep consistent.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 6:54

Post #16 of 23 (2930 views)

Honestly you need to drop about 20-25 lbs. 220 is a lot to carry for a half and your weekly milage is low. Your results are exactly as suspected with your current weight and the weekly milage. Did you do any race specific speed work leading up to the race or did you focus solely on this HR data? HR data is fine, but it won't help you get any faster, that will take focused efforts 1-2 times per week.

Overall, I'd say:
Speed work once or twice a week with some 2min on 2 min off intervals at 5k pace.
Lose 20lbs.
Ignore your HR on race day and use it more for rest/recovery.

Do that in 12-14 weeks and you should easily be able to run a 1:35 or faster

Last edited by: kppolich: May 11, 17 6:54

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 6:59

Post #17 of 23 (2920 views)

I ran a half marathon this weekend as well. I am in training for IM Boulder and I did no specific training for this half. The 6 weeks prior to the race I ran 22.66, 39.89, 23.34, 31.27, 22.38 and 27.51 miles. I biked 5 days a week and swam 3 days a week on top of my running. I am 48. My HR average for the race was 180 and my HR max was 197. But, the big difference is I am only 131 lbs. I ran a 1:27:50.

Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient to become independent of it. John D. Rockefeller Sr.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 7:15

Post #18 of 23 (2894 views)

Your HR zones are off if you thought your max was 180 and you hit 185bpm during mile 1 of the race. Do an 8-min all out test on a track, or race a 5k and make sure you're dry-heaving 10 yards before the finish line, then you'll know your max HR.

Aside from that, given the info you've told us on your race splits that day, miles 4-5-6 look a bit aggressive. An ideal Half marathon for me - since I also run relatively low volume - has my heart rate in high z2 /low z3 in the first 10k, then ramping up through z3 and into z4 by the last mile or two. For a flat race this ends up being relatively even pacing, it gets tougher to hold that pace as the race goes on. Hilly races make the pace vary but I try to adhere to the HR monitor.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [dongustav] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 8:13

Post #19 of 23 (2846 views)

I am amazed at your HR and your ability to maintain it over 13 miles.

I try to maintain around 150 for the first half and maybe edge up to 160 in the 2nd half. If I hit 170 I better be able to see the finish line because I will be walking shortly.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [kaaite] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 8:28

Post #20 of 23 (2824 views)

kaaite wrote:

I am amazed at your HR and your ability to maintain it over 13 miles.

I try to maintain around 150 for the first half and maybe edge up to 160 in the 2nd half. If I hit 170 I better be able to see the finish line because I will be walking shortly.

HR is 100 percent individual, for running it can be very useful if you understand what you can hold and for how long. Much last half I avg over 190 for the second have of the race and the last mile I avg 197. But I know if I stay under the 191ish I can normally run for quite a while.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 8:42

Post #21 of 23 (2808 views)

Well done on your HM.
As others have said - your max HR is clearly higher than you thought. The prediction formulas such as 220-age are just a very, very rough estimate and true max HR values can vary hugely from this. Shortly after I started running several years ago, I used to regularly get credible values in the high 190s and an occasional 203, 204bpm when I was really pushing myself. I would have been 32/33 years old, so the 220-age formula would have predicted a max of about 187/188 for me at the time. Clearly my max was at least 15-20bpm higher than that and this is not uncommon. I'm talking past tense because I haven't checked my max in a long time now.

Don't let the run more, and lose weight comments bother you. If that was your plan anyway - great!
Sounds like you plan to lose weight as it is. It's worth it, but can be tougher to do than you or anyone else may appreciate. Stick at it and it will come, (maybe not always according to schedule).
If you're not interested in the bigger run volumes that others are suggesting and want to do the best you can on lower volumes, that's a perfectly legitimate approach. It depends why you're doing this and what you want to get out of it. More is NOT necessarily better. I reckon a more moderate volume is a healthier approach, especially if you're relatively new to running. It may not provide you with the same performances but maybe that's okay. Lots off people here think anything not aiming to meet your maximum potential is pointless and you're not to be taken seriously.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [1xatbandcamp] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 8:47

Post #22 of 23 (2803 views)

It just looks like you went out to fast to be honest.
A little more mileage a week might help but I would start at like 35-40 max.
As others have said, the numbers are off. A lot of those predictors are just estimates. For the 220-age, I'd be at 178. I'd be dead if my HR got that high as I am typically around 160-165 on a max effort.
I think you just need more experience at that distance. I've being doing at least 1 hard half every year for the last 12 years and now race by feel.

Re: Help analyze my half-marathon results please [kppolich] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 17 9:31

Post #23 of 23 (2756 views)

kppolich wrote:

Honestly you need to drop about 20-25 lbs. 220 is a lot to carry for a half and your weekly milage is low. Your results are exactly as suspected with your current weight and the weekly milage. Did you do any race specific speed work leading up to the race or did you focus solely on this HR data? HR data is fine, but it won't help you get any faster, that will take focused efforts 1-2 times per week.

Overall, I'd say:
Speed work once or twice a week with some 2min on 2 min off intervals at 5k pace.
Lose 20lbs.
Ignore your HR on race day and use it more for rest/recovery.

Do that in 12-14 weeks and you should easily be able to run a 1:35 or faster

My plan had me running 4x week. One day was threshold mile repeats at 8:30 pace (3 or 4) and 6x200 meter reps at :55 sec per 200. The other days were easy 10 min pace runs (one short 4miles, one medium 6-7 mi and one long 10 ish miles). This looks a little slow to me now I should have been doing 8:00 min pace on the mile repeats and :50 sec or so on the repeat interval.

My long runs were 10-13 miles for the last 6 weeks or so tapering down to 7 on the week before the race.

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