its good to know that going slower than daniels, mcmillan etc calculators is perfectly fine on the odd occasion. I know some people still believe very slow running makes for very slow racers. The evidence around here is quite the contrary which is good. Sometimes i find im having to force 5min kms when im sore, tired etc. Good to see 6min is a-ok too :)
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Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [devashish_paul]
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Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [coates_hbk]
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coates_hbk wrote:
its good to know that going slower than daniels, mcmillan etc calculators is perfectly fine on the odd occasion. I know some people still believe very slow running makes for very slow racers. The evidence around here is quite the contrary which is good. Sometimes i find im having to force 5min kms when im sore, tired etc. Good to see 6min is a-ok too :)Note that note all your running should be ultra slow. But slow jogging is fine. Keep in mind that 6 min per km pace is only 50% slower than 4 min pace. While I am about to use different muscle systems as an example, it's not like the guy who wants to do a set of 300 lbs squats will avoid doing sets at 200 lbs also...whether as a warmup build, or on a "light day". Also I realize that the forces in 4 min per K running are a lot higher than 50% more than 6 min per K, but still, it is something more than nothing.
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [coates_hbk]
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Dev knows what he's talking about here, but wanted to chime in and just say that walking helps my running quite a bit. I'm a student, and between walking to class from my apartment, getting to the pool, etc, I'm typically walking an extra 4-7 miles per day. I make it a point to wear pretty minimal shoes, so I get a good strengthening effect for my feet and ankles. Ever since I came to school and had to walk more, my injury rate has dropped an incredible amount.
Should have realized this earlier - before my senior year of high school, heading into fall of my triathlon season after racing all spring, my mother was walking a ton, probably 2hrs/day of vigorous walking. I had an injury at the time, and walked with her, and my injury healed within 2 weeks. When I returned to running I had lost very little, despite ~4 weeks without running.
"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
Should have realized this earlier - before my senior year of high school, heading into fall of my triathlon season after racing all spring, my mother was walking a ton, probably 2hrs/day of vigorous walking. I had an injury at the time, and walked with her, and my injury healed within 2 weeks. When I returned to running I had lost very little, despite ~4 weeks without running.
"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [devashish_paul]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I don't really have time to respond to everything, but there are almost no high school, college or other "team runners" who do a single long run, one track run and two shorter runs. This would get laughed out of the actual running world (just like 4 swims per week would get laughed out of the swimming world and 4 rides a week would get laughed out of the riding world). What the top guys do is run a lot almost every day and they do the long run and track RUNS on top of that. The problem with most plans is they take out the core part of almost every elite running program which is running often and running more mileage. It's like taking the cake out of the cake and just having icing. The real meat of every elite running program is the mileage/frequency. That's the part you want to keep. Doing 3k worth of race pace strides per week (3 sessions of 10x100m at the end of runs) is plenty. The more advanced program has track, it has long runs, it has hills, it has everything, but firstly it has mileage and it has frequency and it has body composition optimization. After people have all that, they can have the icing.
Who is doing what I said?...pretty well every elite program who do mileage and they do strides (but they are also doing the icing on top of what I have said). Most people don't have cake and they are going straight to the icing and wondering why their races are either slow or their bodies break. The low hanging fruit is more mileage and better body composition.
Agreed Dev. I coach a middle school XC program, and many of our runners go on to run for our sister high school St. Joseph Notre Dame, of of the top HS XC programs in California. These kids are running 12 sessions a week when they are on varsity averaging 70-90mi a week during big weeks, often as doubles before and after school. Needless to say they are producing Oregon recruits (one got a full ride this year) Said kid ran 13:59 for 3mi this year and 4:06 at the Nike Boys Mile at the Olympic Trials. Most of the rest of the team is low 15s for 3mi so strong. No secret, just lots of running. The improvement I see when my 8th graders go over to the JV team at St. Joes and start running 50mi a week is huge. Often from running close to 5:45 for a mile race in middle school (XC) to 17:30 for 5k as a JV runner. They also to your point lean out a lot when they go to this mileage, especially the girls.
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Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [runner66]
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I think those calculators online are for runners only. Don't forget if your swimming/biking its harder to run those easy paces that those calculators spit out at you. Do what your legs give you that day. Don't force the pace! I see too many get injured because they try to run every run according to those calculators with the plan they pick off the internet. I averaged close to 50mpw for the year running without one injury because I didn't force the run unless it was a race or a specific run workout. I'm not light by any means either. I weigh 185-190lbs so I should be getting injured all the time but I think I know when to slow down and when to run fast. I also thinks its important when you fit your faster workouts in.
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [abrown]
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Living in a 3.5 story house, and on a hill, I am constantly walking up and down stairs and the hill. I get free workouts just moving around in my house.
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Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [devashish_paul]
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I dropped :30/mile on my 5K pace in 2 months by doing a BarryP run focus this winter. Just consistent, slowish running according to McMillan paces and adding mileage over time. I peaked at about 30-35 miles per week, so not really a heavy run schedule.
Full disclosure, I'm really slow, so there is definitely some law of diminishing returns going on here. But then again, isn't that what we're really talking about?
Full disclosure, I'm really slow, so there is definitely some law of diminishing returns going on here. But then again, isn't that what we're really talking about?
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [trimac2]
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trimac2 wrote:
I think those calculators online are for runners only. Don't forget if your swimming/biking its harder to run those easy paces that those calculators spit out at you.What if I use my 5K PR pace from a Triathlon? That should be certainly slower than my open 5K (I haven't done one in a long time).
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [guscrown]
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For me the McMillan times had such big ranges, it was never a problem. I did an open 5K TT, then plugged that in. For the long days, I used the upper (slower) end of the scale, fast days were in the middle, etc.
I dunno, it worked for me.
I dunno, it worked for me.
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [devashish_paul]
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I don't doubt that the BarryP strategy works, but I think folks will get stressed reading that you need to run 5-6x per week in order to make running gains. I've had success running 3-4x per week as part of a triathlon plan. Never >4x per week. In about 15 months, I've reduced my active recovery pace (<80% max HR) by over 2 minutes. How did I do this? A smart, well-balanced plan. I pay a coach who gets the most out of my limited hours. Off-season is ~10 hours per week and I max out at 15-20 hours before IM. Even when ramping up volume, it is 4x per week and comprises 1) hills 2) threshold 3) long and 4) brick.
Sure, I can train more hours and sprinkle in 15-30 minute runs. However, I'm improving at a rapid pace and at this point prefer to recover on the couch vs. adding in any extra miles. I'll be back studying BarryP when I'm trying to KQ (not this year).
2017 races: St. George 70.3 May 6 | Madison 70.3 June 11 | IM Zurich July 30 | Chicago Marathon October 8
Sure, I can train more hours and sprinkle in 15-30 minute runs. However, I'm improving at a rapid pace and at this point prefer to recover on the couch vs. adding in any extra miles. I'll be back studying BarryP when I'm trying to KQ (not this year).
2017 races: St. George 70.3 May 6 | Madison 70.3 June 11 | IM Zurich July 30 | Chicago Marathon October 8
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [xpda]
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My best 10k was in my best 1/2 marathon ever. Secret?
Dropping weight
1) Getting lean! Really lean, but not so much that energy levels drop.
2 Lots of consistent mileage, but very, little speed work at all. Not even that much tempo or pace specific work.
3) Plenty of overall volume between swim, bike and run. I think it makes up for lack of speedwork somewhat. I'm working other energy systems on the swim and bike providing some crossover. The run mileage provides the muscle fatigue resistance.
I went on 3 weeks later to run only 0:20/mi slower pace in a 70.3 off a solid bike split. If I had swam a little better, it might have been the elusive "perfect race". Still chasing that...
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Dropping weight
1) Getting lean! Really lean, but not so much that energy levels drop.
2 Lots of consistent mileage, but very, little speed work at all. Not even that much tempo or pace specific work.
3) Plenty of overall volume between swim, bike and run. I think it makes up for lack of speedwork somewhat. I'm working other energy systems on the swim and bike providing some crossover. The run mileage provides the muscle fatigue resistance.
I went on 3 weeks later to run only 0:20/mi slower pace in a 70.3 off a solid bike split. If I had swam a little better, it might have been the elusive "perfect race". Still chasing that...
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Re: What made the biggest difference in improving your 5K and 10K runs? [h2ofun]
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h2ofun wrote:
ToBeasy wrote:
I think there is no comparsion needed between four normal runs a week and four runs with workouts etc. It all depends on the year and your current state and what you have done in the past.
I believe one of the biggest AGer mistake is to train the same all the time. No need to strictly build a base first. But your workouts and runs should progress over a season. And you can't run the same workouts week after week and year after year. Surprise and challenge your body with new things. Incorporate hills and strides, do progression runs, fartlek, trailruns, under- and over treshold workouts, rolling hills etc. Just make sure to bring in variation and challenge. And dont do too many hard runs. As said before, the hard stuff should be done in moderation. The biggest gains come from the feel-good-rolling-miles.
Btw, I think I took the weight topic a bit too serious in my late teens. When I gained 7 pounds back I bettered my 10k quite a bit. But now I look like a runner. Before I was a skeleton. But yeah, usually the race weight is approached from the other side.
I am in trouble, since I train the same all the time.
Im with ya, Ive been pretty much doing the same training for 30 years. LOL Run and ride 7 days a week with two interval runs and one tempo run per week and one interval bike and one tempo ride per week. I still love it even at 50.