This ^^.

I very much doubt this bike is for a one and doner at the RRP.

I stand to be corrected in a year's time!

This thread is a couple of days old with multiple contributers and the whole ST community able to view it and no one's coming forward as a proud purchaser so far.

And whilst we're at it who's buying the omni or andean: without doubt even fewer than the P5x, who's gonna risk their cash on these things?

It's not "word play", it's fact. If you can't see that, then you aren't technically savvy enough to understand. And if you STILL insist on "stopping it", then you're being disingenuous and incomplete in your choice of words.

There are 2 basic ways to stop a spoked wheel:

1.) Braking at the hub, which includes internal drum and external disc implementations. This variation has the property of transfering braking torques through the spokes and into the rim, thus necessitating additional structural considerations.

2.) Braking at the rim, of which can be a separate disc attached to the rim (such as is done on Buell motorcycles), or to a braking surface integrated into the rim itself. Integrating the surface into the rim does NOT change the system type, it's still clamping a "disc" using a caliper, just like a hub-disc.There are obvious system advantages to integrating the braking surface (preferably metallic) into the rim for use on road racing and TT/Tri bikes, not least of which is that the spokes no longer need to be designed to transfer braking torques, since those torques are transferred directly to the tire from the rim.

Using the terms "hub-disc" and "rim-disc" is just being more accurate. Just saying "disc" doesn't specify where the braking force is being applied, which matters in the overall system.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Right....I must definitely not be tech savvy enough yet I know exactly what you are talking about.

Slowman called you out on this as well. We all get it Tom. Trust me, we all know where you stand on disc brakes.

You are basically acting like the marketing department of an engineering company. Let's not call it rim brakes, we will call it rim-disc!

The average consumer knows rim brakes and they know disc brakes. Your efforts to prove that rim brakes are basically disc brakes brought about the rim-disc term that no one else uses but you.

We don't need another lecture on disc brakes Tom, as I said, everyone knows where you stand.

I'm simply saying calling it rim-disc is a play on words.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

The use of the more specific terms are necessary because many people, including yourself (and Slowman apparently), seem to think that it's somehow a step forward to de-integrate the disc braking surface from the rim and then attach it to the hub, when from a systems, and history, standpoint it's basically a step backwards (in regards to best performance for road racing and TT/Tri bikes).

So, not "word play". Being specific, and possibly enlightening.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

False. I never said it was a step forward. I said I wanted to ride whatever system is the fastest. I don't care about what braking system that is.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

And yet, with any tri bike that comes out with hub-discs spec'd, you instantly start drooling (virtually speaking)...not to mention that when any data (however flawed) is presented to imply that hub-disc brake designs at a minimum are no worse aerodynamically than rim-disc designs, you take the data as gospel rather than being rightly skeptical.

Ummm...OK...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Ohhh Tom. I'm glad you think you know me! I love Cervelo bikes so no matter what they did, I would want the bike.

I'm still skeptical, but as an engineer, I'm willing to give bike engineers time to perfect their designs and see what happens. Let's wait and see instead of shouting how bad disc brakes are, how bad the tests are, etc.

You should know how the engineering development cycle works being one yourself!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any reliable data on how many P5s there are in the US?

More to the point here, I now ONLY look for used bikes. I bought three amazing bikes this year (CX, FS MTB & Aero Road) for at least 50% off retail. All were less than one year old and in excellent condition. The Aero road bike came from a guy who was a sales manager of a store, he bought it in November, rode it a few times outside, and didn't like it. Even gave me a full retail bill of sale to get me the factory warranty!)