Alas, it seems to be gone forever - I can't find it even on my back-up HD.

Anyway, the reason I was looking for it was to refresh my memory as to how well the Norcom Straight performed specifically at low yaw angles.

Just wanted to say that I love this thread. So much good stuff about the P4 and it seems like everything I've experienced someone else here has to with the bike. Anyway, I'm so glad I picked up a P4 frame back in February on clearance. Has made a world of difference this year.

Also, thanks Andrew for all your opinions here, both on this thread and many other ones. I found a Norcom frame on clearance that I sent to a buddy of mine telling him he should look into it so if you do find that information about that bike please do share. He's still running a 2000 Cannondale with 650s so homeboy needs an upgrade.

With that said, time to go ride my bike.

Jim,

I love that position on the bike. Got a couple of questions for you.

1. Can you hold that position for a full/half?
2. What size cranks are you running?

Have you ever put your mitts on a Suplicy Quantum?

I've field tested them against each other (P4) in 54cm for both.

P4 bottle installed. Ventus 1 bars, slightly trimmed.

Quantum running a Bontrager aero bottle. Ventus 1 bars (trimmed heavily). Blackwell Time Bandit fork.

The crown to frame transition is bad compared to the P4, but it was still faster. On the order of 3W in no-wind conditions.

My friend pro Lewis Elliot is selling a nice one.

https://www.facebook.com/...t_id=774135242727297

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

That position is no problem for me, I am reasonably flexible I guess. For a race like IMFL where you are aero 100% of the time (or nearly 100% of the time), the shoulders get tight eventually, but nothing that is show stopping. For IMTX last year (which literally had 1 turn per mile) I never even noticed it.

I think on that bike I am 170 on the cranks. I honestly have lost note of it, one of my quarks is 170 and I think one is 172.5. In a perfect world, I would probably swap to 167 or 165 and also to a compact set, but I am in the mode of "it works don't mess with it." I also don't want to start spending a fortune on swapping PMs when the improvement MIGHT be noticeable or might be non existent.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

To be frank, I don't know anything about the Suplicy Quantum. Regarding my P4 setup though, I never went ventum because I want to be lower than the ventum will get me. Instead I am negative stem with a super clean pair of older devox bars.

I suspect that the ventums would test better in the tunnel on a bike only test, but I KNOW that if I go up on my stack while on the bike, I start creating drag, so even though the ventums are super badass, they don't work for me.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Even with like a -30 stem?

How much less stack do you need than what is available on the Ventum?

Thanks for the response. One more question. What bento box are you using on the P4 and how do you have it secured to your bike?

Thanks for your help.

It is a dark speed works that holds 2 CO2s a tube, 2 wrenches, nozzle and a multi tool. I sewed Velcro to the bag and then high strength glued the Velcro to the top tube. Riveting some bosses into the top tube is the cleaner solution, but I lack the courage for that move so far. I will eventually do it though.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Don't remember the numbers right off the top of my head, but the way I ended up (on a 51) there is essentially no way to go any lower than I am in the photos. Maybe on a 48 with 650s I could get steeper, maybe with some crazy aero bar configuration (that would likely add more drag than my position gains).

As noted, the whole reason I went to the tunnel was to be able to stop worrying about this stuff. I still think about simple obvious improvements (like 1x drive train, or going ETAP, or different pulley wheels), but on the major stuff like aerobar, frame, position, etc, I am good probably until I crash this bike beyond repair and then have to find a bike that still allows short dudes to ride steeply.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Best thread ever.

Love my P4, Ventus (unless it's raining, or i'm descending), zipp 808 firecrest, zipp 700 clincher disc, bottles installed (bottom cut out and spare tube kit installed), Omega brake. Carries 18 gels completely shielded from the wind in a position that I don't have to get out of aero to eat. The whole "Ironman Equiped" BS that cervelo is spouting is total garbage.

Brakes suck, but likely can be tuned better by me. I kinda new my bike was as fast as it got.

Ken

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

How wide of a wheel do you think you could get on the front? Modern Firecrest? What about out back? Hed Jet non-plus with maybe a 22mm Attack? I've been keeping my eye out for a 58 2011. If I can buy one right I'll 3d scan/print the frame bottle as a specific flat kit and do the same think you did with the top tube bento. Maybe go eTap 1x and have it as my sprint/oly/tt bike. I just love how clean the P4 is.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head. This "Ironman Equipped" testing protocol seems like a way to make this this new bike work for the tunnel against other bikes with tons of crap decked out on them. I venture that my IM equipped P4 (where you literally see NOTHING in the wind that would be different from a 40k TT) would test pretty well against the P5x.

I also agree that I once was descending a true hill/mountain and almost crapped myself on the P4. I have worked and tuned that rear brake to make it as good as it will ever be, it is still just not very good. Couple that with aero levers and a tri rig front brake and well, I don't like having gravity pull me quickly toward very sharp turns at the bottom of mountains and hills. For me, this just hardly ever happens, so it is really a non-issue.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

I run FLOs with 23mm no problem, I could go with 25mm no problem too. The front has never been a challenge for me, on the back, the challenge has always been the rim at the brake track and the rim at a mid point of the chain stays.

There are threads on the issue. FLOs work, but barely. FLO disc I think would be really dicey. When going disc, I go flat and it is awesome (per the tunnel).

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

So Renn/Reynold's Element?

It is a Renn.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

That frame is definitely a very tight fit but our wheels do work on it. As others have mentioned it often takes shaving down the pads.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

To confirm, with my skinny Renn, the brakes are switched to "closed" position. With FLO, I flip brakes open and it runs perfectly (yes pads are shaved).

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Just want to toss out there a plug for the Ventus II bar. I had the old model, but really disliked the brake levers and stem fairing. If the reach works for you, I doubt there is a faster bar for $550. You can add stack with standard 3t risers.

The problem is you cant remove stack and get any lower. The bar is super slick though, no doubt.

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Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Very true. It isn't the lowest stack bar out there.