It means an extra $10 to do an M-Dot.

It means you get to draft.

It means your M-Dot finishes don't count in the national rankings (if you care about such things).

Most importantly, it means that USAT will have to sit down at the bargaining table and get real about their stupid officiating. And WTC will have to sit down and get real about their stupid 7-meter draft zone and maybe finally admit that they need wave starts in IMs.

Sorry, but wave starts is exactly what the sport doesn't need. The best part of the sport is in competing against all, younger, older, faster, slower. Take it away and you have the USAT!

---

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Not sure if you're an age grouper or a pro.

WTC and USAT both have a 7 meter draft zone for age groupers, and it's been that way for years.

Up until this year, it's been a 10 meter draft zone for the pros. Now it's down to 7, just like the rest.

If the pros think they should be operating under different rules, like zone sizes, they need to battle it out among themselves, and convince the powers that be - they are really running a race within a race. Same thing for the age groupers, if they feel 7 isn't the right number.

As for having wave starts, I think that would be one of the last things they think about doing. The mass start makes for great television, and has become a hallmark of an M-Dot race. I think the closest you'll ever see is what they've already done - a separate wave for pros.

1. It means it cost me almost 30 bucks extra this year to do 3 ironman races plus 30 bucks to renew my usat.
2. It gives 70.3 an excuse to start charging 200 bucks for half ironman races..
3. It means pre race meetings have turned into
a joke fest where the GTG presenter doesn't take the rules explainations serious(canada race director was either drunk or acting like it or just half a sleep)
didn't make imh but imf was very subdued.
I sort of miss charlie he gets the point through.
4. It means some wind tunnel test by the sponser
claims 7 meters(front wheel to front wheel not back to front) has no benifit to person behind but(unless I missed it) never has release the actual numbers from the test for free for all of to see for our self.
Then they call it 3 and a half bike lengths when it's really 2 and a half)
5 It means my ironman races won't count toward my usat rankings...
6. It means(from riccitello's description of rules at imf althete meeting) that if someone(especially a female contestent) gets within 7 meters of your front wheel from behind you you have to slow down and let them pass or your blocking. Well at least it sounded like that he did make a deal out of it talking about what sometimes happens when a female athlete come up on a male the male will speed up but it came across sounding like once a person tries to pass you from behind you can't speed up to prevent that pass.
Of course the rules say also if you start to pass you must finish the pass you can't drop back so guess prevents a conflict but really not that clear.

[reply]Not sure if you're an age grouper or a pro.

WTC and USAT both have a 7 meter draft zone for age groupers, and it's been that way for years.

Up until this year, it's been a 10 meter draft zone for the pros. Now it's down to 7, just like the rest.
[/reply]

Wrong the new GTG rule is 7 meters but it's front wheel to front wheel usat was back wheel of lead bike to front wheel of bike in rear so you pretty much cut off a bike length. That's mainly what everyones upset about.

I got a copy of the rules back when they were mailing them out with membership, and I read it as front to front. The web versions for both USAT and WTC are front to front. I seem to remember that ITU was back to front, but their website is also saying front to front. Maybe it was back to front back in the TriFed days?

[reply][reply]
Wrong the new GTG rule is 7 meters but it's front wheel to front wheel usat was back wheel of lead bike to front wheel of bike in rear so you pretty much cut off a bike length. That's mainly what everyones upset about. [/reply]

I got a copy of the rules back when they were mailing them out with membership, and I read it as front to front. The web versions for both USAT and WTC are front to front. I seem to remember that ITU was back to front, but their website is also saying front to front. Maybe it was back to front back in the TriFed days?[/reply]

Cool thanks I guess I should have looked it up I'd always thought it was rear wheel to front wheel and just assumed from all the complaining folks made about the GTG rule it was different. Thanks for the correction.

Not that I'm anywhere near it, but I'm curious what the break means for athlete's approaching the elite level. If you can only get your elite license through USAT events, what does it mean for the athlete that only does IM's? Maybe a small or non-existent sample, but how would you qualify to race as a pro in IM now? Do you still have to get a USAT cert?

I find it interesting that the USAT website says the following even though they don't sanction IM anymore:

This license is for any athlete wishing to race as an elite (eligible for prize purses of $5K or greater) in any USAT sanctioned event whether it is a triathlon, duathlon, Xterra event or Ironman.

Sorry, but wave starts is exactly what the sport doesn't need. The best part of the sport is in competing against all, younger, older, faster, slower.

Which means more threads about how there are packs of 20-60 riders at every IM and nothing being done about it, as usual.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

If you did wave starts, how would you break it up especially on a multi loop course ? Would you do something like:

PROS 6:30 am

Under 35: 6:45

35-44: 6:50

45-59: 6:55

60+: 7:00

Hopefully this would get all the pros through before the 7 am start, but they would still have to swim through all the 6:55 and 6:50 starters.

There would be no perfect formula, but something like this might work. Who on earth needs the mass start. It is a nothing but a pain in the ass. I've done 11 mass start Ironmans and 1 wave starts (Roth 93) and it was great.

[reply][i]Sorry, but wave starts is exactly what the sport doesn't need. The best part of the sport is in competing against all, younger, older, faster, slower.[/i]

Which means more threads about how there are packs of 20-60 riders at every IM and nothing being done about it, as usual.[/reply]

Not if the existing rules are enforced! Don't take down 1 rider. When a pack's encountered, take all but the lead rider. The message will get through the ranks real fast. I have no tolerance for drafting, and the rules are there. Enforcement's the key.

---

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

"Enforcement's the key"

Agreed, but no group, ITU, USAT, GTG, or whoever has ever been able to bring it cpmpletely under control when essentially, there are too many people on too little a piece of road in too short a period of time. You know, this was not a real problem, 15+ years ago when there was less than 1000 people in an IM race.

I like your idea of somehow penalizing a whole pack opf 10 - 20 riders. Great idea. Try doing that in a race situation with everyone going all-out and hopped up on adrenaline.

Fleck

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

In a free market, competition is suppose to control prices and provide consumers with a better product. In this case, prices go up and we end up with the dregs like PEM in both series.

---

-------------------------------------------------
Latest Duct tape QR Superfull fashion model

Not if the existing rules are enforced! Don't take down 1 rider. When a pack's encountered, take all but the lead rider. The message will get through the ranks real fast. I have no tolerance for drafting, and the rules are there. Enforcement's the key.

Enforcement may be the key, but as we have seen in the last 3-5 years WTC is insistent on bigger races with more and more people. But, they do at best, an extremely piss poor job of enforcing those drafting rules. Rules, come on, everyone knows that there will be packs and you just need to play the game. Odds are you will not get a penalty, and if you do, you way ahead of the game anyway. So enforcment may be key, but there is no enforcment so why not have wave starts? In fact an athlete I coach rode sub 4:57 at IMFL. He got rolled up by a pack of 42 cyclists, by his count, at mile 95. He began talking with the drafting marshall and asked if he could ride left to avoid drafting and what the marshall was going to do to break it up. The marshall said riding left to avoid drafting was fine with him and that the marshall had been driving with that pack for an hour, waiting for more marshalls so they could begin to pull people over. Another of my friends said he saw packs all day long. A third friend rode in a pack of at least 30 by his count, from mile 35 to 75 . He would go to the front, then get rolled to the back only to roll back to the front. He claims to have seen several officials who just yelled break it up and drove off.

I agree that enforcement is paramount to solving the problem. But there is no enforcement, or at best a token rider here and there. A real soultion is needed not just some token statement about enforcement by WTC or stopping one rider here and there.

Rules are nothing more than hollow words when not enforced.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

My solution is to have three waves, the pros, those looking for a Kona spot and those doing the event thing. Most of the marshalls would be positioned at the front with the pros and Kona wantabes and the remainder left to have a good time.
Enforcement then would be easy, in that, if someone is caught drafting, on the first offense, he/she loses any chance to qualify but is still eligible for awards with the appropriate penalty. The penalty is harsh enough to stop the wanton drafting we now see.
And for those who like to get beat up in the mass start swims, swimming with 1000 people shoud suffice.

Bob Sigerson

Bob,

Have I met you sometime in the past year? jsut curious as your name rings a bell but I can't seem to place a face with it.

Your idea has merit, but how many people want to compete for a Kona spot even if they have no chance in hell? I'd say that the compete for Kona wave would still have way too many people in it.

An idea that I have thought about would be have the pro women go off 5 min before the pro men, then 10 min before the next wave which should be a fast overall wave such as M30-34 or 35-39, then an older wave or female wave by 3-5 min. Space the fast waves out with slower/older waves to eliminate 300 people exiting the swim in 5 min. Or if that happens the talent mix will be wide enough that there should be little formation of packs that will stick together.

The solution probably lies somewhere between the two, but WTC (USAT and the ITU as well for their respecive races) needs to grow some balls, and take this problem on.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Well everyone should stop bitching about paying the 10.00 per WTC race now. You can not stand USAT, so pay the 10.00 everytime for those few slots.

What you are paying for is a drafting race, ipods, no shirt etc. This is what everyone wanted......so you pay the 10.00 and deal with it.

Since IM CDA I have heard the same things at every
IM race now. Jimmy R. talks the big talk, but lets it go. Hmmm, I though Global was going to enforce so much better than USAT.

What a joke. Next race..........I can draft all day long and you can not do a damn thing about it. It is the new way to race.

WTC/Global.........what a joke

I agree that enforcement is the key, but either group runs the risk of alienating a hugh group if the pick a race and can it to the letter of the law. Can you imagine if the called every possible penalty at an IM. 2200 starters and 800 finishers. It would make it easiesr to sign up the next year. ;-).



Styrrell

---

Styrrell

Maybe announce they signed Charlie Crawford to help out:)

---

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Actually I think if they started calling races tighter, specifically towards drafting, you would find less people upset. It common knowledge that you have little chance getting a drafting penalty at IMNA races, even if there is a draft marshall riding with you.

Why not start dinging 200, 300 or more people. After all you have the rules. Why have the rules if you are not going to enforce them?

What you are advocating really is lettig things slide to appease your customer base. It's like DPS out in AZ on the highways. I drive 15mph, over the speed limit an rarely slow down when I see a cop. Why? B/c they rarely pull people over for speeding. So odds are I'm safe. (for the record I have gotten two speding tickets in my life, one for 20 over and one for 12 over) It's that same mentality that is rampant through out the fields at IMNA events.

Again it boils down to the event/the RD/the marshalls/Jimmy (who I know and is a nice guy), having the balls to actually give the problem more than lip service.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

[reply]Which means more threads about how there are packs of 20-60 riders at every IM and nothing being done about it, as usual.[/reply]

Yup. A friend of mine who rode a sub 5:30 last weekend at IMF told me there were continous packs of maybe 50 riders blowing by her. I asked her why she just didn't jump on - she said they were going by so fast she couldn't!

---

--------------
Elivis needs boats.

I am confused. I thought that there was a split, but at IMFL I was asked to show my USAT card at registration.

Desert Dude.

you said it perfectly "What you are advocating really is letting things slide to appease your customer base"

That is exactly what they are doing. I saw it IM CDA and hear it now from other races. Talk the big talk and not enforce it.

Rules............either enforce them or get rid of them