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Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF?
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So I've just read Nokes book on the "food revolution" seems to make a lot of sense but I would guess he wouldn't write a book that didn't at first glance appear to.

Found this article also which suggests you can burn fat at 80% of V02 max which seems pretty high to me
https://www.ultrarunning.com/...e-on-fat-adaptation/

But most of my concern comes from the lack of long term health studies. Given its ' now been around a while are there any updates anyone has heard about this?

I've read recently of various athletes using similar ideas to good effect, climbing for example. Also suggestion that pro cyclists do? http://realmealrevolution.com/...e-tour-de-france-are

Search a bit of slowtwitch and the conclusion seems to be mixed.

So has anyone seen any updates or debunking of this recently? I'd like give it a go but not if its going to damage me long term. Surely if it's all nonsense it should have been disproved by now- scientifically.?
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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The only way that a low carb approach increases your performance is by reducing your bodyweight. There is no evidence that burning fat at a higher rate during training and racing increases performance; its just a shift in substrate. And for the long term; it might be OK, but there is of course no consensus on this yet. It's a safer bet to follow the general guidelines; most of them are very alike but I like the Brazilian guidelines the most. So dead simple, yet so powerful.

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Ten Steps to Healthy Diets:
1. Make natural or minimally processed foods the basis of your diet
Natural or minimally processed foods, in great variety, and mainly of plant origin, are the basis for diets that are nutritionally balanced, delicious, culturally appropriate, and supportive of socially and environmentally sustainable food systems. Variety means foods of all types – cereals, legumes, roots, tubers, vegetables, fruits, nuts, milk, eggs, meat – and diversity within each type – such as beans and lentils, rice and corn, potato and cassava, tomatoes and squash, orange and banana, chicken and fish.
2. Use oils, fats, salt, and sugar in small amounts when seasoning and cooking natural or minimally processed foods and to create culinary preparations
As long as they are used in moderation in dishes and meals based on natural or minimally processed foods, oils, fats, salt, and sugar contribute to diverse and delicious diets without making them nutritionally unbalanced.
3. Limit consumption of processed foods
The ingredients and methods used in the manufacture of processed foods – such as vegetables in brine, fruits in syrup, cheeses and breads – unfavourably alter the nutritional composition of the foods from which they are derived. In small amounts, processed foods can be used as ingredients in dishes and meals based on natural or minimally processed foods.
4. Avoid consumption of ultra-processed foods
Because of their ingredients, ultra-processed foods such as salty fatty packaged snacks, soft drinks, sweetened breakfast cereals, and instant noodles, are nutritionally unbalanced. As a result of their formulation and presentation, they tend to be consumed in excess, and displace natural or minimally processed foods. Their means of production, distribution, marketing, and consumption damage culture, social life, and the environment.
5. Eat regularly and carefully in appropriate environments and, whenever possible, in company
Make your daily meals at regular times. Avoid snacking between meals. Eat slowly and enjoy what you are eating, without engaging in another activity. Eat in clean, comfortable and quiet places, where there is no pressure to consume unlimited amounts of food. Whenever possible, eat in company, with family, friends, or colleagues: this increases the enjoyment of food and encourages eating regularly, attentively, and in appropriate environments. Share household activities that precede or succeed the consumption of meals.
6. Shop in places that offer a variety of natural or minimally processed foods
Shop in supermarkets and municipal and farmers markets, or buy directly from producers or other places, that sell varieties of natural or minimally processed foods. Prefer vegetables and fruits that are locally grown in season. Whenever possible, buy organic and agro-ecological based foods, preferably directly from the producers.
7. Develop, exercise and share cooking skills
If you have cooking skills, develop them and share them, especially with boys and girls. If you do not have these skills – men as well as women – acquire them. Learn from and talk with people who know how to cook. Ask family, friends, and colleagues for recipes, read books, check the internet, and eventually take courses. Start cooking!
8. Plan your time to make food and eating important in your life
Plan the food shopping, organise your domestic stores, and decide on meals in advance. Share with family members the responsibility for all activities related to meals. Make the preparation and eating of meals privileged times of conviviality and pleasure. Assess how you live so as to give proper time for food and eating
9.Out of home, prefer places that serve freshly made meals
Eat in places that serve fresh meals at good prices. Self-service restaurants and canteens that serve food buffet-style charged by weight are good choices. Avoid fast food chains.
10. Be wary of food advertising and marketing
The purpose of advertising is to increase product sales, and not to inform or educate people. Be critical and teach children to be critical of all forms of food advertising and marketing.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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T1mbro wrote:
So I've just read Nokes book on the "food revolution" seems to make a lot of sense but I would guess he wouldn't write a book that didn't at first glance appear to.

Found this article also which suggests you can burn fat at 80% of V02 max which seems pretty high to me
https://www.ultrarunning.com/...e-on-fat-adaptation/

But most of my concern comes from the lack of long term health studies. Given its ' now been around a while are there any updates anyone has heard about this?

I've read recently of various athletes using similar ideas to good effect, climbing for example. Also suggestion that pro cyclists do? http://realmealrevolution.com/...e-tour-de-france-are

Search a bit of slowtwitch and the conclusion seems to be mixed.

So has anyone seen any updates or debunking of this recently? I'd like give it a go but not if its going to damage me long term. Surely if it's all nonsense it should have been disproved by now- scientifically.?


Keep in mind that total dietary context and personal context are very powerful in influencing the response. The response to the diet is driven by more than the carb concentration alone. Read this interview with Ron Krauss for a bit more insight

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/...red-meat-it-depends/

I can tell you that my experience with low carb (ketogenic) for 3 months was not entirely favorable. I felt great and physical performance was not compromised in any noticeable manner. I actually felt great. However, my LDL cholesterol nearly tripled and my LDL particle count went up by at least 50%, which is not good at all. Back to low fat and my LDL is back to normal healthy levels. My wife had an overall favorable response to the same keto diet. So, it depends, and you never know unitl you try but you need to test before you start and after being on the diet for a couple of months. This is critical. I recommend the NMR Lipoprofile testing. It can differentiate between the various LDL subclasses as discussed by Dr. Krauss.

Even Volek and Phinney's data shows this. Their data shows that the overall effect of a ketogenic diet on cholesterol is no change on average. However, on an individual basis, subjects were all over the map, with some showing significant improvement, some no change, and some a big negative impact. Again, you never know how you will respond and you could respond in any of these ways. Testing can sort this out.

Whether it is advisable to make the switch is debatable. For insulin resistant individuals it is probably worth trying with testing to monitor response.

Mike

Simplify, Train, Live
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
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That's interesting about cholesterol and I guess this is where Noakes is really challeneging the norms as he suggests that not all LDL is bad and it is an impossibility for dietary fat to convert to the bad type. That's well beyond me in terms of understanding but I get that he acknowledges it and dismisses it as a concern.

So whilst performance may not increase (although ultra runners might benefit?) is there then any advantage of a carb diet over low carb and if there is no difference why would you pick that other than it is the establishment? Clearly you could supplement carbs for heavy races or workouts where you would be above the 80%V02.

I'm mainly interested as I have read reports of good weight loss with no muscles loss which I think would be beneficial. I also seem to binge on sugar at every opportunity so cold turkey might be a way of controlling myself.

Also when looking at my diet I worry that most of the things I eat that are carb based are quite highly processed so even to eat cleanly I would be having to lower carbs anyway. (I'm thinking breakfast cereal/ bread pasta etc)
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [Bill] [ In reply to ]
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I realise this is a performance forum so I guess that's the focus but what if it doesn't improve performance (except to help control weight- which is a biggie) a counter argument to the above would be I guess prove that carbs are better for you- Noakes has some interesting data to suggest they are not.

He also make a good point that we always seem to start from the point of prove fat is good for you not prove carbs are good for you- which is odd given pre farming revolution carbs would have been mostly veg and berries - which is what he advocates.

I think the fat utilisation bit is overly emphasised to me he only needs to show that you adapt to the point where you don't perform worse. If that's the case then its worth considering as a choice as valid as the carb model.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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I've got no idea what the science says but I do know that I'm not going to KQ (or anything similar) regardless of what my nutrition consists of. However, I generally feel better eating LCHF and my performances overall are roughly the same - better, worse, same depending on the day). Thus, I'm sticking with it for the time being.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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I've been listening to some podcasts with Dominic D'Agostino recently. He's an assistant professor at the University of Southern Florida researching metabolic based therapies, including the use of ketones. During these podcasts, he suggests that his research (and that of others) show that being in a ketogenic state can help with quite a few metabolic conditions. I'm not going to repeat all the things he suggests but if you are interested have a listen to the two podcasts on the Tim Ferriss site and the Ample Health Podcast one.

I think it is clear that it LCHF does help with weight loss. I think it is also clear that it takes quite a lot of time to get properly adapted, particularly if you decide to go down the ketosis route.

Sami Inkinen's website has some charts of his use of energy (fat v carbs) when he was eating three different ways (typical triathlete's very high carb / very low fat, medium carb / medium fat, low carb / high fat). He said that his LCHF diet increased his ability to burn fats to 750 kcal per hour, up from the 200 kcal on a high carb diet. But I don't think he says that that made him faster.

In terms of improving performance then things get interesting. The weight loss clearly helps. There has been some recent research that drinking exogenous ketones can help high performance cyclists. But that doesn't say that LCHF does. One other way that LCHF may help is for long-distance athletes who suffer GI issues with eating lots of gels, etc (but I've been lucky on that so far).

From a personal perspective, I've lost 12 pounds in just over four weeks in ketosis (I'm in the 'normal' BMI range). It's very rare for me to feel hungry now. In fact sometimes I have to eat deliberately because I don't want my calorie deficit to be too big. Before this I always felt hungry. But my running and biking performance has suffered big time over this last four weeks. I plan to keep going on this for quite a lot longer to see how long it takes to before my performance returns.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [Dead Keen] [ In reply to ]
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Dead Keen wrote:
I've been listening to some podcasts with Dominic D'Agostino recently. He's an assistant professor at the University of Southern Florida researching metabolic based therapies, including the use of ketones. During these podcasts, he suggests that his research (and that of others) show that being in a ketogenic state can help with quite a few metabolic conditions. I'm not going to repeat all the things he suggests but if you are interested have a listen to the two podcasts on the Tim Ferriss site and the Ample Health Podcast one.

I think it is clear that it LCHF does help with weight loss. I think it is also clear that it takes quite a lot of time to get properly adapted, particularly if you decide to go down the ketosis route.

Sami Inkinen's website has some charts of his use of energy (fat v carbs) when he was eating three different ways (typical triathlete's very high carb / very low fat, medium carb / medium fat, low carb / high fat). He said that his LCHF diet increased his ability to burn fats to 750 kcal per hour, up from the 200 kcal on a high carb diet. But I don't think he says that that made him faster.

In terms of improving performance then things get interesting. The weight loss clearly helps. There has been some recent research that drinking exogenous ketones can help high performance cyclists. But that doesn't say that LCHF does. One other way that LCHF may help is for long-distance athletes who suffer GI issues with eating lots of gels, etc (but I've been lucky on that so far).

From a personal perspective, I've lost 12 pounds in just over four weeks in ketosis (I'm in the 'normal' BMI range). It's very rare for me to feel hungry now. In fact sometimes I have to eat deliberately because I don't want my calorie deficit to be too big. Before this I always felt hungry. But my running and biking performance has suffered big time over this last four weeks. I plan to keep going on this for quite a lot longer to see how long it takes to before my performance returns.

Wow thanks, great info
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [Dead Keen] [ In reply to ]
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Dead Keen wrote:
I've been listening to some podcasts with Dominic D'Agostino recently. He's an assistant professor at the University of Southern Florida researching metabolic based therapies, including the use of ketones. During these podcasts, he suggests that his research (and that of others) show that being in a ketogenic state can help with quite a few metabolic conditions. I'm not going to repeat all the things he suggests but if you are interested have a listen to the two podcasts on the Tim Ferriss site and the Ample Health Podcast one.

I think it is clear that it LCHF does help with weight loss. I think it is also clear that it takes quite a lot of time to get properly adapted, particularly if you decide to go down the ketosis route.

Sami Inkinen's website has some charts of his use of energy (fat v carbs) when he was eating three different ways (typical triathlete's very high carb / very low fat, medium carb / medium fat, low carb / high fat). He said that his LCHF diet increased his ability to burn fats to 750 kcal per hour, up from the 200 kcal on a high carb diet. But I don't think he says that that made him faster.

In terms of improving performance then things get interesting. The weight loss clearly helps. There has been some recent research that drinking exogenous ketones can help high performance cyclists. But that doesn't say that LCHF does. One other way that LCHF may help is for long-distance athletes who suffer GI issues with eating lots of gels, etc (but I've been lucky on that so far).

From a personal perspective, I've lost 12 pounds in just over four weeks in ketosis (I'm in the 'normal' BMI range). It's very rare for me to feel hungry now. In fact sometimes I have to eat deliberately because I don't want my calorie deficit to be too big. Before this I always felt hungry. But my running and biking performance has suffered big time over this last four weeks. I plan to keep going on this for quite a lot longer to see how long it takes to before my performance returns.

The bolded part was exactly my experience as well. For the first approx six weeks my training was absolute rubbish, and I actually started to never feel hungry and had to consciously eat otherwise I wasn't getting enough total calories in. After about six weeks I started to come good on zone 2/low zone 3 type work. I never felt good going high zone 3/4/5 on keto.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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I have been doing a LCHF for a three years now and have never regretted it. I was always slim but could never get rid of my love handles and some belly fat. When I cut out all the bread and pasta, fruit, etc. I got rid of the love handles. I have done five IM since then. Currently I have bulletproof coffee for breakfast before I go to work (MD) and also before a longer workout. I take some UCAN super starch on longer rides or runs (3hours or more) but for any distance other than that I take just some water.
Lunch is salad and oily fish and dinner I do a carb re-feed with meat/fish/sweet potatoes/rice.

My cholesterol/LDL/trigylerides are excellent.

This approach works of me but I is not for everyone.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [AlexS321] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

I am experimenting with Keto and LCHF. It is a kind of new season for me and each season I try something new in search of gains that are still out there.

I have done 3 straight weeks now on the very low carb and achieved nutritional ketosis pretty quickly. I have experienced all the usual keto positives (less hunger, leaning out a bit, etc) and none of the usual negatives (no keto flu or the like).

After 2 weeks of the diet acclimatization, I started to move some training back into the program expecting there to be an acclimatizing period for that as well. Wow was that true.

For swimming, I am basically the same, little difference noticed, but for riding and running, I am way off right now (day 9). I expected to be missing the top gear, but what's a little surprising is that just long steady state runs, the HR gets way jacked beyond the RPE (based on my usual carb laden life style). I am prepared to suffer like this for another couple weeks (that would be 5 weeks of keto and 3 weeks of keto endurance training) but I am just curious of your experience transitioning.

I have always planned to re-introduce CHO for harder efforts. I was thinking like 1 hour interval session on the bike would require 1 gel for me to be able to drill VO2 for instance; but I wanted to leave that alone until my z2 stuff returned into a more comparable situation. My expectation was that at some point the z2 stuff would be the same speed and I would just be burning all or nearly all fat. When I approached z4, I figured I would need some CHO but not as much as I used to need (basing all this on Phinney, Volek, and a few others' books).

Any guidance for a keto rookie? My goal was to make and maintain race weight more easily while being able to perform the same or better. Basically I thought the better migher only be from not having to fuel so much during events.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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I work with someone who is at the forefront of sports physiology research, he looks at the role of glucose/glycogen in metabolism etc. It's not my area of expertise but I understand the basics enough to have a general conversation with him. Anyway his advice, train low race high with regard to carbs. More specifically, the train low piece didn't mean train low all the time, it meant being selective about what workouts you train fasted and which ones you consume carbs before (and what type of carbs). One of the things he put me on to was before a long ride (approx 4 hours or so) to have one serve of a lower GI carb source (I use waxy maise starch, if you want the full bells and whistles you can go down the UCAN path but they are very similar in terms of response) and one serve of MCT powder/oils. I have been getting through 4 hour long rides with multiple threshold efforts thrown in on that plus half to one bottle of Gatorade and then water for the rest. This follows an adaptation period where I went into ketosis for a few months.

While I was in strict ketosis I have similar experiences to you. No top end, heart rate would rapidly increase after about 90 mins (which is generally, give or take, when you start to exhaust stored glycogen).

My n=1 was that ketosis doesn't increase your performance (in terms of speed/power/pace as an output), but that the adaptation you go through while on it while result in a much less likelihood of slowing down as much at the end of longer endurance events when you combine an adapted state with racing high (carbs).

So no, I wouldn't expect to see an improvement in your running/swimming pace or power output. But after an adaptation phase and when combined with correct carb fueling on race day you should notice that it would be far less likely that your nutrition, or lack of an ability to absorb the required nutrition, will slow you down in longer endurance events. If you're doing Olympic distance or less, the only reason to go keto is to lose weight.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [rock] [ In reply to ]
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My main events have always been IMs and 70.3s. I do the other stuff too, but with far less emphasis.

The plan for me was always to race high. I was going to experiment some, but probably start putting the glyco stores on around 36 hours pre race and do so pretty heavily, then on long course race day, still consume through the event (maybe less than I used to, but I would have to experiment there too).

I used to routinely bring on 400 cal/hr on bike and 200ish on run.

If I didn't need that much and resulted in same or better performance, I would take it.

In the end, if I can get super lean without being a miserable starving asshole all the time, keto will be worth it.

I need to get through whatever adaptation period this is so I can actually pile on the TSS again. Like I noted, everything really blows on the bike and run in this state thus far. I never figured I would be able to do VO2 Max intervals on keto, but I thought that eventually, z2 would be little to no difference keto versus carb. Only 9 days in, so I need to give it some more time before judging.

Worst case, performance never comes around and I reach a good race weight and then introduce carbs regularly to get training done but hopefully no more and I can maintain the weight.

If it continues in uber shit fashion for a few more weeks, I will tweak to take on carb before all sessions with the idea of depleting it all via training and then being fat burning the rest of the day.

So far, the nutrition part has been strong (getting leaner, good energy, not starving ever), I just need to get the performance bit to adapt and then tweak it to fuel the hard efforts.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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I see your Noakes and raise you Louise Burke.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
I see your Noakes and raise you Louise Burke.

Thanks for this- looked her up and listened tons pretty decent podcast.

http://www.scienceofultra.com/podcasts/19

I love her take on things - seems really scientific with no real agenda. It's interesting as she doesn't disagree with much that Noakes says (from memory) but she does disagree with a lot of the zealots and rightly so.

Basically if you want to go for ages at 65% of vo2 max and don't want to carry a lot of food it could be great. So ultras for slower folk maybe or multi day events where you can't take a lot of food -MDS?

None of what she says also suggests that it couldn't be used to lose weight sucsessfully.
Where she rightly points out is that for most elites in most sports and most amateurs in a lot of sports there are periods of higher intensity and it does inhibit that even if you add carbs last minute. So there are uses but it's not a catch all.

Also some interesting bits about periodising nutrition during training to a far greater degree than I thought maybe was useful (ie not just eat extra carbs before a hard workout).

I'll be looking into her stuff more!
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [T1mbro] [ In reply to ]
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She's tried for 20 years to find a high performance dietary method for LCHF that can stand up to the test of data. It can't. Proof is in the pudding when you look at the top 4-8 hour athletes' diets. Lots o'carbs to be found.

Furthermore, the one area of biological science that doesn't (hasn't?) get (gotten) a lot of play is the endocrine system. When you restrict carbs while performing extended bouts of endurance work for days/weeks/months. Something has to give and when it goes the HPA axis can get really ugly when you've stressed it out via this method.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Would love some updates from you folks who were implementing these changes.
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Re: Any more recent studies on Nokes LCHF? [mjpwooo] [ In reply to ]
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I would love some updates too. You guys still hanging in there and seeing any improvements?

I'm into my fifth week and the power loss is still quite dramatic, and I've only been in zone 2 and 3.

Six weeks ago my power at heart rate 140 was 300-310 watts. Today I'm sitting at 250-260.

Feeling great otherwise though. Lol!
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