If my heart rate is >0 I'm good to go:)

Hugh

---

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Training can plateau or fail for many reasons. I wouldn't necessarily lay it all on the door of HR. That said, if it's not working, then try something new.

For the specific quote, "Now I read this book that says HR shouldn't be paid attention to during training sessions or races. "

Lots of people say that. Power should be the primary metric on the bike. Personally, I find HR useful in training and races, but as a secondary metric used only for specific reasons. My training is not "HR-based."

Got any more info about your training program?

Agreed. Power should certainly be the primary metric, but if you don't pay attention to your HR at the same time you might find yourself in trouble.

For an example of how to use it as a secondary metric, I spent all winter training for IMTX in my basement with no fan. I knew exactly how much power I could put out, I had my FTP tested as accurately as practical, and knew exactly what power to ride to on race day based on my past performances at full distance races, and my training all winter.

Race day comes, and I rode exactly to my power plan. Then I walked a good portion of the run. What happened? Post race analysis indicated my HR was about 10bpm higher for the duration of that ride than I trained to all winter. While my pw:hr decoupling ratio was only 2% for that ride, indicating that my ability to ride at that power was not in question, my HR was simply too high in order to help shed heat. When it came time to run, that extra HR clearly bit me in the ass. Had I been paying attention to HR (it was on my display, and I should have paid attention), I would have recognized that in the heat I should have backed off my power a few watts to keep my HR in the range I had trained to.

Did the Mark Allen online plan (before he and Luis split) for 3 years. Worked with a coach, who essentially did the same thing, for 1.5 years. Am admittedly very frustrated, and as above, shouldn't blame it all on HR training.

Without knowing more I would guess you've plateaued from following the same approach for 4.5 years, not necessarily from doing HR training.

Trying to keep to HR "zones" during runs has been an unending source of frustration for myself. Anything more than a walk and my HR is up over 155, and I'm well past the Z1 run workout my coach prescribed. Getting it back down require stopping and walking, which I'm sure doesn't do me any good.

My last runs had average HRs of 161, 161, 164 and 165 and none of them were faster than a 9:50 avg pace. I'm know I'm not built to be a good runner (I'm quite happy with a sub-24min 5k), but there's a serious disconnect between RPE and HR zones for me.

Are you sure your heart rate zones are right? I.e. You've got accurate max and resting HR rather than just using the formula which estimates it from your age?

I train with a guy who is the same age and about the same fitness as me (run results on a flat course are similar, I beat him if there are hills as he's heavier). His HR is typically 15-20 bpm higher than me at any given pace. I have a low resting HR, he has an unusually high max HR for his age, therefore our zones are very different.

Honestly am not sure they are, I've never had any formal testing to establish max and resting HR's. I'm 28 years old, resting HR is typically in the 50-55 range when it has been measured, as for the Max, best I can do is look at my Garmin history and say that it has never gone over 182. I was sent run and bike tables by my coach, run one is as follows:

Zone R (RPE 4): under 129 bpm
Zone 1 (RPE 6): 135-144 bpm
Zone 2 (RPE 7): 145-155 bpm
Zone 3 (RPE 8): 156-166 bpm
Zone 4 (RPE 9-10): above 166 bpm

Zones R and 1 are freakin unicorns that I can't achieve without walking. I'm into Z2 quickly and usually edging into Z3 with a warm-up jog, and any sustained running effort leaves me in Z3 or Z4. If I ignore the warmup of my most recent training run, my HR ranged from 168-175 just to maintain a 9:54min/mi pace. I know heat can have a big effect (and its certainly hot enough in Texas), but there's still a huge gap between what I'd say an RPE is on a training run and what my resulting HR is.

Same story for me. My HR drift was a little more than yours at just under 5%, but nothing excessive. My power was actually a bit on the conservative side, but my HR was 10-15 beats high the whole ride. My efficiency factor in training was typically 1.65-1.75 and on race day it was about 1.45. I saw that my HR was high but ignored it figuring that if I stuck to my power plan I'd be fine. That was a really rough run.

What is your race pace? when you say "just to maintain 9:54", I assume that means your RPE is not that high at 9:54 pace? If you hit 175 doing 9:54 and your Garmin has never been over 182, what happens at 8, 7, 6 minute pace? I think the answer here is to do a 30 min threshold test and get the correct baseline. It wouldn't surprise me to find you have a threshold closer to 195 or so.

Only relevantly recent race pace I have is the 5k from a sprint tri this past Sunday, kept around a 8:00min/mi pace with my HR ranging from 166-174 (169 avg.). I'd say the RPE was in the 8-9 range. Training runs at a 10ish min/mi pace feel closer to 6 to me, but the separation in HRs between the efforts is tiny to nonexistant.

For the sake of clarity, the training runs are done in 90-95 deg heat at about 50% humidity and that race was in 80 deg heat 80% humidity.

What does the 30 min threshold test entail?

This is a pretty simple and quick guide to testing and setting zones.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll have to find my way back to the running track and give it a 30 minute go

I’m making a lot of assumptions and guesses but here are my thoughts:

It sounds like what you mean by “heart rate training” is actually a training philosophy (ie: Maffetone).

Heart rate (and power, pace and RPE) is simply just a measurement tool.

The issue appears to be with your training program and not your choice to use heart rate as your measurement tool.

I use the TP formula as well. I am similar stats (28yr old, Resting HR 45-50, max bike HR 166, max run HR 172 i think, 175-180lbs).

I have been training/racing off/on since october 2010. My first year was strictly HR and since then bike is strictly power (keeping an eye on HR as well). After my first year, i paid attention to HR on the run on ez days and then workouts were based on pace/efforts.

I would say your training is more relative to the effectiveness. I remember my first year, a HR of 145 would be around 8:30-9min pace. Now i can do ez runs of 8-9min pace anywhere from 110-125HR.

Go ez when its supposed to be ez, go hard when its supposed to be hard. Add volume. HR training takes longer to work and see noticeable gains when your volume is pretty low IMO.

my experience is 4 IM's (PR 11:17), many sprints, 5-6x 70.3's (4:29 PR).

stay positive and keep plucking away!

That gives me hope that someone my size can have some speed!

I've been training for about a year now, strictly HR-based and honestly have been disappointed in the progress. Were you coached or did you use a training plan?

Have always been coached. I typically train 12-18hrs a week (on the higher side as race approaches)

I bet that helps! I'm usually training 10-12 hrs a week, past few months have taken a hit though. Why didn't I get into this damn sport back when I was single?

Definitely do the test. My run LTHR has been +/- 2 bpm since day one, first test was 11 years ago. But pace during those tests have varied a lot depending on my fitness. The 220-age related method would have me training 5 bpm too high 11 years ago and now 5 bpm to low today and dropping going forward. I know others who's LTHR have been way off of the 220-age & "max" - resting methods.

On the bike I've had more HR variability on the trainer and now only use virtual power. Outdoors I'll ride with HR but mostly to confirm RPE. Racing I'm more RPE with HR secondary on the bike. I ignore HR on the race run, its always been high for me vs RPE.

---

<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>

So your heartrate for a 8/min run is the same as for a 10/min run? That's weird.

This year I am wearing my HR strap for all training. And now have a power meter so and working on using that as my primary metric. I never have paid much attention to HR. I mostly have worked off of RPE to determine my pacing. I'm not sure what I should be looking at for my HR data. I'm following a trainerroad triathlon plan so their swim and run workouts have a RPE number listed but not HR.

Its just like power, start by figuring out your zones.

Yea, I agree with others. They are both important and tell you things the other doesn't. It's just that power is more meaningful. It tells you what you are accomplishing, doing or achieving (output). HR tells you how hard your body is working (input). In addition, HR can fluctuate based on a number of factors (temperature, sleep, caffeine, etc.) In a perfect world, you train with both. However I'm guilty of leaving my HR strap behind on many a ride.

---

Power Meter City
Your Power Meter Specialists