same here, my tt position is very aggressive. i can hold it no problem racing outside, but on the trainer it isn't happening. i do all my workouts on my trainer on my road bike, and after a few panicky omg everything is all wrong weeks of outdoor tt workouts in the spring, i'm ready to go.

i could never do the kinds of hard workouts indoors that i do if i had to do them in aero.

I was thinking about specificity when I rode my trainer just now. Something that I've noticed when time trialing outdoors is very apparent on the trainer. Riding at a constant fairly high level effort when aero is more quad specific than when riding over rolling terrain in the aero position or riding on my road bike. Consider that riding on the trainer for an hour is like riding on a dead flat road with no turns or intersections for an hour. When is the last time anybody did that? If you think about it, you'll realize that you pretty much NEVER do that. So right there, riding on the trainer is going to be different. You might go out and do a two hour ride where you're aero "all the time", but if you really analyzed it you'd see that the rolling terrain changes the way you sit on the bike and pedal, that you get breaks when you turn, come to an intersection, stop, stand on a steep climb, etc.

So I just did my workout. It's about 1:05 of riding with 2x20' at the high end of tempo, into the low end of sweet spot depending on how I feel. One thing I've ALWAYS done on the trainer on my road bike and continue on the TT bike is that every 5' of that 20' interval I shift up two gears and stand for about 15-20 seconds to give my butt a break. That is why I asked about how you do your trainer rides. If you're expecting to just hop on the trainer and ride in the aero position for 30, 40, 50, etc. minutes without breaking aero... Well, then you deserve what you get! :-) After a number of years of doing all 2x20's on my trainer, I'm branching out using trainer road and basically doing variations on the same thing. Antelope -1 (5x10') or Seneca Rocks (3x15'). On those two workouts I'll stay aero for the whole 10 or 15 minutes without a break and it's not so bad. But it's okay to break out of the position periodically to give yourself a break.

Reminds me of a bike tour my wife and I did with some friends a few years back. OATBRAN. One Awesome Tour, Bike Ride Across Nevada. It crosses Nevada from South Lake Tahoe to Utah on highway 50. There were tremendously long stretches of flat, straight road with no interruptions. Riding in our paceline we'd periodically call "butt break!" and stand up. My point is that any position will be uncomfortable if you hold it long enough. BTW, as odd as that tour might sound, it was really fun and interesting and beautiful in a different kind of way.

Also, if you're talking about being in a computrainer class and keeping up it sounds like you're talking about pretty high level efforts which is contrary to your earlier statements. High level efforts on a trainer are a whole 'nother level of hell and to my mind a COMPLETELY different thing than what we're discussing here.

Lots of talk about "aggressive" positions in this thread. This is mine.

http://www.pbcreativephoto.com/...T-WEDS-O/i-HCckJ64/A

Not sure how aggressive that stacks up against others, but for point of reference this is a comfortable position from my point of view. (Though I wasn't feeling so comfy when this picture was taken...) Also, as a caveat, this was taken at the top of the opening climb at masters nationals which required some pretty serious output and is less aero that it would be if taken on a flat stretch of road.

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Kevin

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I agree, it is easier to hold position outdoors. Probably because you are never in a static position, like on a trainer. Your bike can sway left/right.

Well, we can at least take "apples to apples" when it comes to bike positions (to some degree, at least).....5'9" on a L Shiv TT.



That pic was with the wider aero bar position w/ bridge and the medium spacers. I have since lowered it to the point where I now use the narrower position, but uses all 3 spacer options for that width (did that make sense?) Pads are in the forward position.....Pad reach is 495, don't remember pad stack off the top of my head, but have a saddle to pad drop of ~14cm, IIRC.

Also switched from the stock S-bends to a lazy ski bend from triRig.

And again, I'm not sitting there expecting to hold my aero position for 30-60'....but even short periods are just not comfortable for me indoors. But when I get down to Sanibel for my first outdoor rides of the year, I can knock out 2-4 hour rides with no issues.....and that is on a long stretch of road where I can stay aero the whole way out from Sanibel to Captiva and back.

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If that was the case then riding rollers would solve the problem but it doesn't.

It's simple physics.

Well that is helpful.......

Seeing as how I only managed a C in high school physics, would you care to elaborate?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I got an A in High School and College Physics and it didn't help me either.

Like you I can ride all day long outside in the aero position but indoors it just kills me. I tried making the bike comfortable indoors and it felt awful outdoors.

jaretj

Exact same as my experiences......well, except for the A in physics part. Showoff.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I posted a link to the explanation earlier in this thread. Here it is again:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/...104861&p=1444959


We've always known why indoor riding is different (low inertia) but no one ever really explained why that led to lower power output when transitioning between indoor and outdoor riding and vice versa and why indoor riding is often more uncomfortable.

I don't put out less power on the trainer.

Are you pointing to post #29?

Every time I click the link it takes me to a different post but that one seems to be the most appropriate.

But I got a C in statistics :(

The one with the graphic. I think it's #29. Linking to individual posts in a forum thread is always tricky.

but we aren't talking about power output, we are talking about comfort in a given position.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

OK, I feel better now.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Both issues are addressed as they have a common cause.

OK, so as an experiment, I decided to do an easy recovery ride today when I got home with my bike on my Velodyne (remember those?)

Pretty much the same result...my overarching reaction - pads are too far forward and too low. Just is not comfortable.

But I know as soon as I get outside, I am good to go.

I'm just kinda chalking it up to "one of things" unless someone can point me in a specific direction as to why I need to be in aero on my trainer.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

OK, on the efficiency end of things there's this one.- http://www.researchgate.net/...on_metabolic_economy where they find that cyclists who train with road bikes are substantially less efficient when they ride in an aero position while triathletes who only train in an aero position are just as efficient cycling in aero as in a more upright position.

Their conclusion - "From this study it can be recommended that cyclists and triathletes should train in the position in which they race."

Then there is the power output end of things addressed in the following study. http://www.researchgate.net/...aerobic_power_output where once again the conclusion was:

"From these results it is recommended that athletes train in the position in which they race."

Then there is Team GB's thoughts and actions on the subject as described by author Michael Hutchinson former speedy UK pro and author of “Faster”.

In the quote from Faster that follows, Michael is talking about discussions with Dan Hunt, coach of Team GB team pursuit.


“ One of the points Hunt made in relation to his team pursuit riders was that they all rode low-profile time-trial bikes in all the training they did, on road or track, because it more accurately replicates the position they race in and and engages exactly the same muscles. It's a simple way to increase specificity. When I was involved with the GB system 10 years earlier, 80% of the training was still on standard drop-bar road bikes. The change of training bike now seems an obvious one to have made, but it still went against decades of cycling tradition. “

You may recall that Team GB had pretty decent success with their team pursuit and perhaps the move away from riding their road bikes so much might have had a tiny bit to do with that.



Now if you're actually riding your road bike on the trainer in the position Jordan proposed



then you're probably not losing a huge amount of adaptation.

On the other hand I think a huge number of folks doing their trainer sessions more like



and they're not doing themselves much of a favor.

As always,

YMMV,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I'm more like your second picture.

If I sit up like the third I cannot put out any power.

jaretj

Thanks for the feedback......a couple of quick points / responses.

1) I am not completely neglecting my TT bike / position. Once the weather warms up and I can get outside, I ride my TT bike a lot. ALL of my long rides are done on my TT bike. So it isn't like I am just hopping on my TT bike at races and hoping for the best.

2) Funny you mentioned road position in that context because I was thinking about that last night. Like jaretj, my position is much more like FC's than a recreational rider. I come from a 25+ year road racing background. I am long and low across the board, not just on my TT bike. I am lower on my hoods than some people are in their drops. This isn't the best example (taken on a downhill section so my weight is shifted back somewhat....plus it was my second race and I was about to get popped off the back, so I am a bit more upright... but it gives a decent enough idea of my position i guess. Bent elbows and flat back are pretty standard for me.....and no one likes to be on my wheel in a paceline. Pretty small hole behind me. Hah!

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I'm lower on the hoods than most people are on the drops cuz I ride a 44cm road bike with 650's :P

Great discussion in this entire post. Got me thinking about my training habits. Currently I ride my TT bike on the trainer during the week and the road bike outdoors on the weekends (as weather allows). Main reason is because I work in a different city during the week and the TT bike has the PowerTap so I like it on the trainer in the hotel during the week-day interval work.

My goal has been to train in aero position during those hard intervals for muscle specificity, and try to build up the "aero muscles" later in the rides by staying down as much as possible. Like many have discussed, i'll break position to keep the power up, but it's important to "trigger" the muscles from the aggressive aero position.

On the weekends, I try to ride in an aggressive road position, but now I'm wondering if I give up a lot of "aero endurance" by not doing many long rides on the TT bike. Perhaps I should switch the two bikes as I get closer to my A-race?

I can do a decent Z2 down in aero on the trainer but need to sit up to produce power above that. On the road, no problem staying aero and doing Z3 or Z4 work. I use a Kurt Kinetic trainer and agree it's the lack of movement of the frame from side to side that makes me feel "off" while in aero.

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Interesting ... I find that an aero position on the KK encourages a less mashy pedal stroke, but I can get to Z3/4. Sweet spot aero rides on the trainer are the bread and butter of my cycling regime FWIW.

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