If the WTC only had 50 spots reserved for "ordinary" people I suspect the same people would still be complaining that some of those given those spots were undeserving or wasting the spot. The WTC has well over 1200 qualifying spots (XTRI has a current article ennumerating them all). Even increasing this number a couple of hundred, divided up over all of the age divisions and then divied up amongst the 15 IM races, would hardly help the chances of anyone on this list making it to the big dance. As the number of participants continue to go up qualifying will continue to get harder and harder, regardless of what the WTC does with these numbers.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

When you finish Great Floridian within 17 hours you don't get to say you did an Ironman, rather you get to say you've done an "Ironman distance" race. Shouldn't be able to call yourself an Ironman either, IMO. A "Great Floridian" maybe, Ironman, no.

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Elivis needs boats.

If you finish your an Ironperson But I might go home before you come in : ) Then the next day I'll call you IRON. OK you might not get a medal!! Or picture, they may go home also, but the next day I'll call you IRONMAN!!!!

Think it degrades the meaning of Ironman if someone calls themselves an Ironman?

Actions of others neither confirm nor degrade my accomplishments.

>>By my count, there are 15 m dot events other than Hawaii. Couldn't these corporations give their free spots to some other exotic location and leave those 500+ slots to qualified athletes to RACE in Hawaii.<<

Now really Bob, do you honestly think every single person who qualifies for Kona and goes there is really one of the top 5 (or even 10) who actually "race" for the win in their age group? OK, maybe in the upper ages, where the split isn't as big amongst the participants. But, having worked in Kona four years and talking to a lot of athletes, I'd venture to guess that maybe 10% are there to actually "race", as defined by going for the podium. Most have met their goal, which was qualifying FOR Kona.

As for the sponsors giving their spots away to the other races--I'm a sponsor and the option is b.f. Wisconsin or the Hillbilly Riviera in the offseason, or Hawaii, where ALL the big guns will be? I know what I'd do with my sponsorship money. (Not that there is anything wrong with Wisconsin--heck, I love the Packers.)

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Cathy, I believe there should be at least one IM distance race that is sacrosanct in regards to competition like the USAT National Championships. I realize there were some in the USAT NC who had no chance to medal but in most cases, they were not embarrassed. They got off the path when they allowed anyone from the SMW region to enter but most qualified. Maybe what should happen in triathlon is that anyone who wants to compete can. Just keep taking boat loads of people to Alcatraz island until everyone who wants to do it once so they can say they completed it.
An analogy is to have Harvard open enrollment via a lottery or Oxford allowing all seniors in college to enter the Rhodes scholar lottery.
I am very pragmatic and know these commercial enterprises will never go the way I am thinking. After reading the comments on this thread, I am probably only a vocal minority, anyway. I will tell you, though, that I would never go to Hawaii or Boston unless I qualified and I do not think I would make the podium if I would, but I would feel like I belonged there and I would RACE.
I have entered the Alcatraz lottery and maybe, just maybe, I'll get to meet you.

Bob Sigerson

They have qualifying races now for Alcatraz. I'm suprised that such a purist would take the lottery route :-).

None are close enough or I would.

Bob Sigerson

With all due respect to IMH, what people tend to forget, in my humble opinion, is that it's NOT a world championship race, no matter what people around the globe call it. Is it the most prestigious race? You bet! Is it a true world championship? No way, not even close, not when a private corporation organizes the whole thing.
I think that the WTC being a corporation has all the rights in the world to set any type of rules for the races it manages, whether some so called purists like it or not it's another matter. I also think that the WTC has to find the right balance between "corporativeness" and the old pioneer spirit that is behind many people's idea of the IM if they wanna keep attract to the race the very same people who helped them launch it. I think that the risk they have right now is make it too fancy and to water down the event too much, accepting people who wouldn't have any business being in the race at all. But like many of you said, IMH is becoming more and more an event rather than a race and as long as people are happy with it, well, I don't see anything wrong with it. Plus, like Gordo said on Xtri.com, if you don't like all the fuss and huge crowds, there are many many IM distance races both in the US and in Europe where you can be as satisified as in any WTC race. It's simply depends on what people are looking for.
My 3 cents...

This post could run and run.

If you go by the original concept then technically any time over the course is a finish however, you really have to go by the rules as they stand. 17hrs is the limit then the lights go out. I don't wish to sound uncaring but you need to impose some sort of control as to what 'Ironman' status actually is. The fact it's difficult makes it so damn appealing. People like Bill Bell only make it more so. I have a problem with lottery slots only because I know dozens of well trained and experienced athletes that could only benefit from an increased amount of places at qualifying races if they were available. Still Collins always wanted the race so that Joe average could race it although i'm not sure what Joe Average looks like these days. Probably got good legs on him and 10% body fat though.......

I would like to throw out a different point of view. We are all commenting as people on the inside.How about people who are not as famoliar with doing an IM. When I came home to Montana from doing IM CDA a strange thing happened. There are now 8 people registated for CDA 2004. All of them better athletes than myself. All faster. In local runs and marathon they all kick my butt. However all of them would not sign up for an IM until they saw if I could do one or not.Now that they know "HE" can do one so can I, they sign up. This guy may not given the respect to the distance He should of,but He had an oppertunity and had the balls(without probably knowing what he was getting into)to sieze it and not sit on his ass. I am looking for a 12hr finish and will get my butt handed to me by some of the people here going with me,but in a sense this guy had more of the IM spirit than the ones here that I had to see if (someone not as good as them)I could do it before they would try.

[Filippo]>>With all due respect to IMH, what people tend to forget, in my humble opinion, is that it's NOT a world championship race, no matter what people around the globe call it.<<

[sig]>>I believe there should be at least one IM distance race that is sacrosanct in regards to competition like the USAT National Championships. <<

I totally agree with both of these statements. I also agree that IMH is an "event", not a true world championship. And, as long as it's privately owned, it never will be. In fact, the WTC just announced a second go at the eBay charity auction slots.

http://vnews.ironmanlive.com/vnews/topstories/1069793662

But, would we really want to leave it up to someone like the ITU to run a long course world championship?

On the subject of +17 hour IM finishes, personally, if I had gone over the 17:00 time limit (and I came closer than I like), I would not call myself an Ironman. I like what Norton Davey said when he became the oldest IM finisher.....

Draped in a finisher's medal and handed a congratulatory T-shirt after midnight, he refused to accept any adulation. "Wait a second," he said. "I didn't officially finish."

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

For what it's worth I agree with you on all counts Cathy.

[quote]But, would we really want to leave it up to someone like the ITU to run a long course world championship?[quote]

Not really, but I wouldn't mind if WTC stuck to the original principle of having to qualify for it, rather than buying your entry through lottery, auctions, sponsors, etc...I don't mind giving wild cards to ex pros or to those who made the sport what it is now, but I do have a problem when someone takes a shortcut and pretends to bve entitled to the same type of treatment as those who have earned it.

The same principle in my opinion should apply to the 17 hour limit. It's an arbitrary rule, like many that we have in the sport. If you race a WTC event you have to know their rules and you have to be able to perform within them. If you do that, then you can claim you finished the race, otherwise you simply participated without officially finishing.

I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving

Filippo

Reading the various posts, I can only say: sour grapes, come on you guys, this competitor finished and in my book he's an ironman (although not an official finisher). I think that's where the distinction lies. I'm in my 2nd year of multi-sport, done my 2nd IMF and was lucky to win a Kona slot this month. I say lucky because on any given day things can go wrong but this time the stars were aligned. But what's the big deal? Isn't it the journey that matters? The quest of getting there? ( I may feel different once I hit the surf in Kona)

congrats on your qualifying! sour grapes? hell im thrilled for ya! i think you are misreading these posts if you think most are about sour grapes. I have never been closer than 25 minutes to a Kona slot and really dont care if i ever race there, in fact, i dont think i could afford to go anyways. I just get tired of this society always dumbing down the standards for EVERYTHING. Im a teacher and I see it every day. 10th graders at a 3rd grade reading level. 40 cheerleaders on a sideline, special accomadations for every 5th student. sorry but something like an ironman is one of the few things left that ya still have to earn, its a race/event with rules..swim, bike and run. get that last one? RUN. This 17 hour time standard has a built in "you can walk 26 miles clause" any tom, dick, or harry that has been training can bike that 112 and get off and walk forever. If you cant meet that deadline, than you just dont deserve the title. Its just too bad, try again. But great job for trying(said with sincerity)And until Kona quits calling itself the world championships, it should be reserved for the best, pros and ag's. Just too many other I-man races out there for anyone that feels the need to give it a go. again, congrats on your Kona slot, you deserve to be there!

It may not be an "official" world championship, but for ultra-distance tri it is the de facto championship. It is always the deepest field because of the prestige associated with the IMH legacy. Hawaii is the most coveted podium in all of triathlon, "real" championship or not.



Some say anyone who does the distance is "worthy" of the title, perhaps so. However, those making this argument are saying that the rules are arbitrary. These tend to be the same who argue that the rules allow for a lottery and sponsor slots, so deal with it. Do we choose to honor the rules that we approve of, and ignore those that we don't.



Others say that if you aren't there to race, and didn't earn your spot, then you are taking an opportunity from someone who truly deserves to be there. Well, if you truly deserved to be there, racing for the win, shouldn't you have been able to qualify?



My opinion? It is what it is. It's an event with a lot of history. The Holy Grail for most triathletes. The lottery is part of that history, and I think it's nice that a few "average" competitors are able to fulfill their dream each year. I believe that's part of the IMH appeal. I think that anyone who has ever waited for the late finishers, cheering them home, knows what an electrifying and rewarding experience that is.



I'm not so accepting of the charity and sponsor slots. I'm also pragmatic about them. They put money in the WTC's pocket, and above all considerations, that is what the WTC is in this for. They aren't going away. If anything they will continue to dream up MORE gimmicks like the (ridiculous in my opinion) CEO challenge. I don't get too worked up over these people, but I wish there was a more rigorous validation process. Most of the recipients of these slots are probably just as deserving as the typical lottery winner. I only wish that the media would pay a little less attention to these privileged few, and focus more on the guy/girl who is working a full time job, perhaps raising a family, yet is still disciplined enough train in the early morning/lunch/post-family time. Those doing it because they love the sport and would have been out there doing it, with or without an IMH slot.



As for those who barely make/miss the cutoff - If they were out there giving an honest effort then I have a lot of respect for them. As someone has mentioned, it takes a lot of guts to keep grinding away for 15+ hours, knowing that you aren't going to win anything but the right to be proud of yourself for persevering. However, if you're in this to challenge yourself, then the time limit is part of the challenge, arbitrary or not. If you're only interested in seeing if you can cover the distance, who is stopping you from heading out your door right now and testing yourself? When you enter an IM, you are signing on to test yourself within the parameters of the event. If you don't cross the line in 17 (or less in Oz) then you failed to meet the objective. That doesn't mean you are a failure as a person, but you didn't earn the trappings of success in this event. Like I said, I don't scoff at those who miss the cutoff. I can assure you that I would be right out there among those waiting for Bill Bell, Norton Davey, or anyone else bringing it home after midnight. It's still an awesome accomplishment, but I dare say that most people in that category feel the same as Mr. Davey and Cathy. They know that they didn't accomplish what they set out to do. They aren't satisfied with "almost". It doesn't make them less respectable.



The only person described in this thread that I have any real negative feelings about is the one said to have stopped off at his condo, waiting to be the last official finisher. As one who has waited to give a big welcome to the last finisher, this would piss me off. The finish line crowd is waiting to say "Well done! Great effort!" to someone who has struggled and yet overcome the challenge, not some glory hound. I just wonder, did he have a Sharpie in his sock, ready to sign the finish line tape? ;)



Happy trails,

Chris

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Happy trails,
Chris

Damn! This is the Energizer Bunny of threads!

I think that you should consider people's root motivation for doing an IronMan(c) race, or a Iron-distance race, or whatever. If you really want to, you could get up any Saturday morning, swim 83 laps in the pool, ride 112 miles, then run 26.2 miles, and congratulations, you have done an Ironman. Ideologically, you may disagree, but why is that different? Because you need someone else to tell you you have done it? So if you have a friend follow you the whole time, does that count?

We do triathlons for a variety of reasons, and bring different value systems along with us. Some people will argue that you aren't an IronMan unless you complete an M-Dot race(at which point you may choose to get a small tattoo on your right ankle ;p). Others would buy into the do-it-yourself model above. Some people adhere to the rules strictly; others are perfectly comfortable drafting like weasels and cutting corners on the run course. Some people want to race the IronMan, while others just want to finish it.

Ultimately, however, when you buy into the whole "IronMan" race construct(or that of any organized race, for that matter), you are buying into a format and a set of rules. Conform to the rules and you become an IronMan. Fail to comply, and you do not. The rules, while arbitrary, are there to equalize the experience to make it so that each competitor has a fair opportunity to complete something measurable and meaningful. If we are allowed to arbitrarily ignore rules when it suits us, then where does it end? And what about all the other people who have ever been disqualified for something that we are granted an exception for?

While I agree that the journey is important, what is the journey without a meaningful destination? The fact that this thread has run as long as it has is good evidence that the many people on this forum have a lot of time, effort, and emotion put into their avocation, and while we each do triathlons for personal reasons, some people are more accepting than others when there is the appearance of trivializing what is, for many, a very long, very arduous journey.

For the record: I am not an Iron person...yet.

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>>but I wouldn't mind if WTC stuck to the original principle of having to qualify for it<<

Clarification: The original principle was NOT having to qualify for the race. You paid your money and showed up. This was the case for many years.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I finally got around to reading the xtri.com article about this guy and can't figure out why you all are so pissed at this guy. From everything that I have read, the talk is big but I wonder how many of you would be able to do anything but cry your little eye's out if you were in Kona to see this guy drag himself to the finish line. The poor bastard had stopped twice for a total of 1:40 for massages to help out cramps and if he is guilty of anything, yes he did not give the race it's due respect...heaven forbid there be people in this world that are not overly obsessive triathletes that wear their heart rate monitors 24/7 and own $8K bikes.

What do you hope to take away from this guy? I did the full vineman in 12 hours but that is not branded by m dot, am I not an IM? If you have a beef with Michelin, don't buy their products. The sponsors exemptions and lottery are facts of life. Deal with it. If it is your philosophy that lottery, charity, ebay and sponsor spots are cheating, great don't take one. Remeber the actress from Baywatch who got in on a 'human interest' spot when they had those? 1 year of personal training and preparation and she came in at 16:00+, is she not a 'real IM.' Please.

Getting upset about what Kona is or has become is absurd. It is a show, event, race and world championship and one of the most important aspects of the sport. If you want to be mad about something, gripe about the lack of consistency in the way the 'race' is run not the being as a whole. I'll listen to discussion about drafting / stagger rules all day long, this 17 hour - real IM stuff is non sense.

Get yourself to ANY iron distance event and hang out until midnight. Wacth the folks that come in before and after 17 hours. If you still want to deny any of them what they are or what they have achieved, so be it, but I don't think you would be anything but moved at the courage it took to do what they just did...no matter what the background of how they got there.

I have been back on forth on many of the issues and points being made on this thread and could argue almost any side of this with a straight face. I think my personal debate boils down to an intellectual conclusion verses gut feeling as to what IM/ironman means.



Intellectually, I want to say, “Qualify and finish by the rules as they are written at that time. Period, end of story, anything less is less than IM/ironman.”



Gut feel – Awards ceremony this year at Kona, Bob Babbit tells the story of a woman (I am sure I have a few of the specifics wrong – but I am close), late-50’s who has qualified for Kona twice. First time, a few years back, she did not make the bike cutoff and her day ended early. Determined, she gets back to Kona this year, makes the bike cutoff by 5 minutes. Darkness falls on the marathon course, she trips and falls in the Energy Lab, twists her ankle (later determined to be fractured). No chance of hitting the 17 cut off and with the escort of two volunteers she limps her way in over the last 6+ miles. Hours past midnight, she and the volunteers that stayed with her cross the now dark “finish line”, a man who had finished (before midnight) watches this, runs over to her takes off his finishers medal, puts it on her and tells her she deserves it more than he does.



I know if this woman walked up to me showed me the medal and told me the story of her day I would have a hard time telling her she did not deserve the medal – does that make her a Kona Ironman/ ironman? (FYI – I assume she has previously completed and IM race so no doubt about if she is an IM – but is she a Kona IM, I guess is the point). I like to pretend that in the fine print of the rules there is a section that allows a finisher, on any given day that they completed and IM the right to hand out one “exception” to the rules for performance that embodies what Ironman/ironman means to them.



Also, I do know that when I want to convey to a non-IM/ironman the awesome feeling of the event, the greatness of the sport and how proud I am to be associated with it, I am much more likely to tell the story of this woman than I am to tell the story of my poor, but better than 17 hour, showing on that day.



My guess is IM / ironman means something very different to each one of us and if you are like me its meaning changes often, sometimes as often as day to day. What is the right answer – ask me tomorrow.

My point? Not sure, but I enjoy the thoughts and debate and sorry this missed the specific point of the post that started all of this – but once I started writing this took a different turn from my original intensions.

yes, its inspiring to watch people that have TRAINED HARD, or had physical problems struggle to an Ironman finish, and if it inspires you to "cry your little eyes out", so be it. Next year I will be summiting Mt. Everest in an encapsulated bubble carried by Sherpas. I hope the others that have done it the alternative way still respect my accomplishment. My friend this is a message board, made for comments and opinions, if this thread is a waste of your time then dont read it. People arent stewing all day and losing sleep at night because of this guy and Kona. They are just passionate about the sport and respect what Kona represents to them. Vineman dosent have a thing to do with Kona, so let us WTC/M-Dot/non-purists/ whiners have our say. Im glad for yours and others opinions as its refreshing to hear we all dont think the same.