One of the guys I train with never swam in HS (learned after college), he maybe does 20-30 flip turns a YEAR. Usually he swims 1-3k a week when in high training mode. Almost always in the top 50 swim split, usually top 20. Not sure on his IMH time, but it was around 52 minutes.

He hates flip turns, but sure seems to be able to race at the front for a 40+ yo guy.

I don't do them although I am the guy that runs in the swallow sections of a swim.

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Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)

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"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman

I think the closer comparison is people who say that group riding is of no benefit, because you don't draft in a race (and my own story clearly demonstrates that this is not true). Same can be said of open turns vs. flip turns in swimnming -- you don't have a wall in the lake. Well, if there's no wall, then there's no open turns either genius! So the fact is that your training in a pool is so far from the racing environment that it is a moot point, and then the question becomes: what is the most effective way to train IN THE ENVIRNMENT YOU'RE IN?

I say that's flip turns.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

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When you are swimming in a tri do you hold your breath for 4 seconds every 15 strokes get short of breath then have to catch up the next 15 strokes or do you breathe in an even rythm the whole way?

I'm not knocking flip turns. They are great, but by not doing them it does not hurt your tri training.

For all of those tht don't think that flip turns are benificial, why do all swimmers do them? Other than that Nigerian who almost drowned I have never seen an Olympic swimmer not do a flip turn - so they are faster in the pool. Stop being sissys and learn to flip.

I bet you all argue for breathing in every stroke too. "I breath on one side every stroke and I am plenty fast." Right? WA WA WA! I bet you were plenty fast on a road bike with clip ons too, but you still have a $ 2,000 + Tri bike with aero tubing and deep dish wheels for shaving seconds off your 40K.

Now I know that swimming is the bastard child of the three sports, but if you shave minutes off your swim it is free time to lose the rest of the course. Plus you will be better rested.

- To answer the question posted, donot spend too much time learning to flip three weeks before your 'A' race, that is B.S. So is not learning to flip if you are going to be in the pool 3x a week.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Its like if you were at the track running 1/4 mile intervals. Does it do you any good at the third turn when you are really sucking air to hold your breath for 4-5 seconds. I guess I will alsways be a swim geek. I don't like flip turns and I wear a jammer.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Howdy, Many super elite swimmers are breathing every stroke now, most notably M Phelps in the fly.



Styrrell

[reply]Its like if you were at the track running 1/4 mile intervals. Does it do you any good at the third turn when you are really sucking air to hold your breath for 4-5 seconds[/reply]

More good than it does you to stop running and take an additional deep breath every time (open turn), assuming your goal is to become a good runner.

Flip turns don't take 5 (extra) seconds either - SCY elite masters go around :45 for a 100, with 3 turns, and they're not covering the rest of the distance in anywhere near the 30 seconds that would leave (yes, I know that in reality sprinters aren't breathing that much anyway - that's not the point).

Swim coaches generally don't want you to breath into or out of the wall, so that can be a bit hypoxic, but if you do breath on your last and first strokes and are swimming aerobically to begin with, it's effectively continuous swimming, which is what you're trying to simulate. If you can't accomodate a flip turn in your oxygen utilization scheme, you're not swimming aerobically to begin with.

Which brings us back to the track analogy - speedwork is great, but would you really train for distance running by ONLY doing 100's? Because that's what a typical (non racing) open turn amounts to - doing distance swim training by only doing 25's or 50's. Were one to stop taking the extra breath and stop using their arms to position their legs for the pushoff, then an open turn might become less of an interruption, and in that case, why not just spin around at the flags and leave the wall out of it?

"Flip turns don't take 5 (extra) seconds either"

I was talking about how long I was under water during the flipturn with no breathing.

"If you can't accomodate a flip turn in your oxygen utilization scheme, you're not swimming aerobically to begin with."

I can handle it when I am swimming at along distance-tri pace, not when I am doing sprints. I suck at swimming aerobically and flipturns.

i guess i should bet better at flipturns. I appreciate the encouragement and your points.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

actually....go read some of Emil Zatopek's training. You'll find he would hold his breath and see how many power poles he would run by. Actually wound up passed out on the road one time.

 

It will help in the long run, so stick with it. Ultimately it's also more fun, once you master it, and adding some fun to swimming has to be worth something!

As to sprinting, which despite my assertions above is an important part of swim training, others have pointed out that a decent flip turn will elevate your performance, maybe allowing you to swim in a faster lane or hang in through the set with the faster swimmers in a given lane - the pain of the flip turn can be worth the added fun of being able to stay on the feet (good practice itself) or making the interval.

funny, I'm a pretty good swimmer, but I have never thought to, or seen anyone try to swim fly for more than the first couple of strokes in the open water.

Swimming fly is a completely different animal than swimming free. Comparing the two is like comparing walking a mile and going a mile doing forward hand springs.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Flip turns and proper entry/exit technique (i.e. no breathing into the turn, first pull is with the lowermost arm, no breathing on the first exit stroke) are imports from competitive swimming. You're learning to swim as fast as possible in the actual race medium (25 yd pool). Flip turns are faster than open turns any day. As for the breathing part, I can still hear my HS coach yelling at us for breathing when we weren't supposed to. I can also remember getting the 5 gal bucket of cold water treatment for not listening. That or whacked with a pull buoy. Who cares now!! Bastard had good aim, though.

Maybe it's like shaving your legs. If you want to be taken seriously as a cyclist, then that's what you do.

As for the comment someone made about not changing anything three weeks before their IM - I say learning flip turns is not a big deal at ALL. It's not like you're trying to get better at a different stroke, such as breaststroke. Unless one is planning to do a lot of breaststroke. :)

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

That reminds me... I've now seen two people do "pivot turns". When the hand is about a foot from the wall, you kinda pivot your body to the left or right, keeping your face in the water the whole time and your torso parallel to the bottom, then push off with your feet as normal. Don't know if they have back problems and can't bend at the waist or what. Looks like a flip turn without the flip.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

For all the people talking how fast they are without doing flips, it is sort of like when people tell you how fast they are inspite of how much alcohol they consume: you just want to say, imagine how much faster you COULD be.

Flip turns will increase your confidence as a swimmer and will help technically by streamlining things, increasing your feel for the water and prevent you from getting rest at the end of every lap. No matter how efficient your open turns are you do take in a big breath every time. You look cool,you feel cool. I came to triathlon from a running background and have learned to flip OK but wish I was better.

If your new coach will not let you swim with the group unless you learn to flip then postpone your participation until after your key event. He should prorate your fees in that case.

As you learn flip turns it can tweak your back some so just another reason to avoid learning right now.

don't blow your taper period learning a new and fundamentally unnecessary skill.