Run speed and weight

Sep 25, 03 10:12

Post #1 of 23 (4533 views)

After four years, I am really getting sick of my dog meat run ability. I used to be able to run. Despite my 30" inseam, I did a sub three hour marathon as a kid. Yes, I was 25 years younger, but that problem is tough to fix. The second big difference is that I was also nearly 20 pounds lighter. I looked a lot like the real runners I see at my Tuesday night "speed" session as they go by me while I am doing "speed" work at Gordo's IM Canada marathon pace.

I would not be described as fat by any means. From the hips down, I am doing great. As with most 45 plus year olds, I have a fair amount of flesh around my torso that never used to be there. It is not exactly fat. My scale puts my body fat at around 9%, though I find this figure suspect. It is not exactly all muscle either.

The few times in the past when my weight has gone from nearly 160 normally to around 150, I haven't done well. I have had problems training and recovering. I can't say my weight dropped intelligently or even on purpose these few times, so I can't necessarily say the lower body weight caused my problems.

It stands to reason if I am pushing and extra 5% of weight around the track, each stride will be about 5% shorter as that mass comes more quickly back to earth, other things being equal. I doubt other things are going to be exactly equal.

If I go through the very painful process of losing ten or twelve pounds, will my run speed really pick up immediately? I am not talking about an increase in fitness triggering a weight drop and better performance. I am talking about using a diet to force a weight drop in an already fit person and getting better performance as a result.

Oh yeah, my ability to climb on the bike really stinks too, but I am certain it is for want of a 15 gram lighter fork rather than a 15 pound lighter waist.

Any feedback based on experience would really be appreciated.

Flabby in Florida,

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 11:32

Post #2 of 23 (4477 views)

From what I've read we are of similar age and body type, so I think your focus on weight may be misguided. It's been two years since I got serious about training year-round and though I have lost just a few pounds, I look very different in my speedos. I think it's more important how your pants fit than your scale weight. I look more like an "apple" than a "pear" now. Guys like us will tend to weigh more because it is easy for us to build muscle through swimming and weight training. It sounds like if you dump too much weight you get sick and injured, so how can you do well if you don't make the start? No one is as fast running as they were 20 years ago so enjoy your longevity, keep training smart and kick some ass.

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 11:34

Post #3 of 23 (4473 views)

People spend thousands of dollars to lighten their bikes a couple of ounces...why not lighten the machine? IMO losing the weight will help you considerably. However I would continue to maintain my lean tissue with a higher protein diet and strip BF. This is best accomplished in a slow methodical manner or you will just feel weak and actually perform worse as you mentioned. Plus the weight will come right back when the cravings pull you back to the dark side.

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 12:05

Post #4 of 23 (4446 views)

Well, I'm 52, skinny as a rail, and run as slow as molasses during a freeze up. Everybody tells me that I have a perfect runner's build and "look" like a runner. Hmmmm, does that make me a poser?

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 12:07

Post #5 of 23 (4440 views)

Here is a GREAT article on the subject:

http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh02.php

Essentially, it says that, yes, you will get faster if you lose weight. The weight guideline for the AVERAGE male is 110 lbs. for the first 5 ft. of height and 5.5 lbs. for every inch thereafter. So, an average (non-active) 5'8.5" male (my height) should weigh 156.75 lbs. HOWEVER, the article suggests that, to be an elite runner, your weight should be anywhere from 2.5-15% lighter than average, depending on the distance you race. Therefore, I should weigh in at around 133 lbs. if I want to be an elite marathoner. Obviously, triathlon is different from straight running, so I wouldn't want to go that low. Gordo discussed this article awhile ago, and if I remember correctly, he suggested 5-10% below the average weight.

As with all things training-related, you need to figure out what works best for you.

Dave in WI
-----------------------------------------------------
"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 12:17

Post #6 of 23 (4423 views)

If you ran a sub 3 hour marathon, no matter when, then you are a runner. In that case, weight has EVERTHING to do with

how you are doing now. Of course, loss of flexibilty and other ravages of time slow you down. But by far, you are limited by

how much extra weight you are carrying. I do not agree that it automatically shortens your stride, but it certainly will elevate

your HR too quickly. Don't kid yourself. Run the weight off, do alot of stretching and plenty of pushups. At worst, you'll look

better!

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 14:50

Post #7 of 23 (4344 views)

I've read bunches of stuff but I have to admit I think weight matters -- or "body composition" if more accurately put. As long as we can maintain strength, health and lean body mass, less body fat is better than more.

Most of us are familiar with Gordo's stupendous run at Canada by now. You know that he weight 13 POUNDS LESS at the start line at Canada than at New Zealand?! While a lot goes into running sub 2:50 in an IM, I'd bet a box of Krispy Kremes that his body weight had a lot to do with it.

I'm trying to drop 10 pounds myself, Art. I'm also being REALLY careful to eat a big mix of bright and shiny vegetables at nearly every meal, lots of lean protein and some fruit to balance it out. Virtually zero bread or other starchy foods. No egg yolks, no hamburgers, no cookies (ice cream on Sundays though -- that's "desert night" in our house). No powerbars, no Endurox, no Gatorade (except on long runs).

I've sunk into the post-long-run bonk hole a few times, but I'm starting to figure the balance out. Despite my year of solid running miles, my weight stayed stubbornly at 168 until the past six weeks or so. By focusing that last little bit on diet, I've suddenly dropped to 162. My goal is 155 before my 'A' running race in January.

If you have lost energy when dropping weight, it might be that your weight dropped for some other reason (low grade infection is a likely candidate). You've probably already done so, but read the Nutrition series on Gordo's Tips page. Excellent advice, if a little overboard (too much fruit for me).

Also -- the "food police purists" might cringe, but instead of lunch at work I have an 11 am and 2 pm snack of an apple and a Myoplex CarbSense drink or bar. Keeps food cravings away and excess calories at a minimum.

Re: Run speed and weight [Julian] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 16:04

Post #8 of 23 (4295 views)

I had really hoped that everyone would come back and say don't worry about the 10 pounds, but I knew that was not reality. When I was a kid at maybe 140, I did nothing to get skinny. I ate all I wanted. Even when I was not active, I could eat all I wanted. Around age 40, I was sedentary and started gaining weight slowly. Now I am very active and can eat anything, but my body weight stays just south of 160. Big difference between 160 and 140.

Dropping down to 150 and staying there would be really tough. I am not at all sure I can do it. Getting there for a few days is easy, but that does no good at all.

I read some of Gordo's stuff on diet. He is way overboard. I couldn't keep that up. Blowing off the white rice I often have with lunch, laying in a supply of protein bars for those late afternoon cravings, and laying off the after workout and nighttime junk food is something I might be able to manage. I keep most of my workouts to about an hour specifically so I don't need Gatorade and recovery drinks. Even doing all of that would be tough and I don't know how much my weight would actually go down. I have never seen much of a relationship between food and weight except within fairly narrow limits.

On the other hand if dropping 5% of body weight would drop my 5K time by a minute, it might be easier to workup the discipline.

It really stinks getting old and fighting the weight, but it also stinks fading after my fourth 97 second 400m interval too. I don't expect to do these over and over again at 72 seconds like I used to, but asking for 85 seconds just doesn't seem all that unreasonable even at age 48.

I guess I am coming to the conclusion that I need to do some painful work in this area. I would much rather go for a 100 mile bike ride, but it seems I need to work on diet, not just exercise.

Flabby in Florida,

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 16:42

Post #9 of 23 (4277 views)

In Reply To:

... but it seems I need to work on diet, not just exercise.

Yep. I did endurance sports for several years and never lost a pound. Joined Weight Watchers last year and I've lost 45 lbs since then. Took nearly an hour off my time at a recent half-ironman (including about 30 minutes off the run). WW is all about moderation, something I was never able to figure out on my own.

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 18:06

Post #10 of 23 (4227 views)

"it seems I need to work on diet, not just exercise."

It's really a combo of exercise and diet. Before starting triathlon my weight was 158 lbs and my exercise was sporadic and recreational. Now I'm 10 lbs lighter. All I really did diet wise was cut out the junk food. My food portions stayed the same and I wouldn't give up my beer!

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 18:31

Post #11 of 23 (4214 views)

I'm 5'10" and weigh about 153. I'm not a fast runner but at one point I weighed about 25 pounds more and it's much easier to run now. Sometimes you just need to make one or two small changes and see how they effect your performance and body composition over a period of time. It's all really about calories in vs. calories out. I didn't change all these things at once but here are some of the things that helped reduce my weight the most:

Eat a healty breakfast every day

Eliminate as much processed food as possible (per Gordo)

Always read the nutritional information label and ingredients list on any pre-packaged food.

Try to eat 6 smaller meals instead of 3 big ones

Stop eating 2 to 3 hours before bedtime

Try to get the majority of calories earlier in the day instead of at dinner.

Stop eating fast food. Avoid restaurants as much as possible.

Always take healthy snacks and a water bottle with you to work or in your car.

Give up dairy products, especially those with whole dairy in them. They were causing my acid reflux anyway.

Eliminate breads and wheat products.

Less white rice more brown rice.

Eat lots of fresh fruits and vegetables

Consume only healthy fats. Flax oil, olive oil fish oil, etc.

Richard

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 19:06

Post #12 of 23 (4202 views)

I've read that run speed is more closely correlated with weight than with age, and my own experience makes me believe it. For me it hasn't mattered whether it was lean mass or not. When I was pretty serious about weightlifting my sustainable speed was a lot slower even though endurance was the same, and BF% was better.

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 03 21:35

Post #13 of 23 (4158 views)

Nice to see you are able to accept the weight issue, a lot of people are not and lie to themselves about how they can trick their overweight torso into speeding up.

Last year at this time I was 5'8" and 172 pounds, needless to say I had a nice beer gut going and a few spare chins if the world supply ever got critical. My wife was in the same boat. So we joined a health club that started a triathlon team in January of this year. I signed up because I have always been up for a challenge. We also both signed up for weight watchers.

It has been an interesting year! The weight watchers gig did a lot of good in getting me focused and admitting I was eating way too much fat and huge amounts of sugar. It pretty quickly became apparent that I was graduating well beyond Weight Watchers because my food intake requirements with my training were off their charts. I still followed the program but added "points" to my daily allotment to compensate for my increased level of exercise.

I did my first triathlon ever in May. Have done 4 more since. When I got up that morning I weighed myself. I was 136. I trimmed 36 pounds and TWO minutes off my mile pace in the process. I also studied and adopted a new running style very similar to the Pose method and try to turn over my stride 92-95 times a minute. That has helped a lot I'm sure.

Keep working at it, you will be successful.

Cheers, Yellowdog!

"Too much of everything is just enough" - Bob Weir, Grateful Dead

Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 5:12

Post #14 of 23 (4104 views)

Art,

I'll have to throw in a different point of view from all the other posters. I'm not sure it's all about the weight.

In the late 80s/early 90s (I was 25-30 at the time), I used to weigh 185-188. I'm 6'2" and played 7 years of water polo while in elementary/high school (so no "runner's physique" here). I ran my first marathon in ... 88? in something like 2:59 and by 91 I managed a 2:39. In the "best race of my life" ('90 IM-length "Endurathon" at lake Sunapee), I ran a 3:12. 5k times were in the mid 15s.

Fast-forward 10 years, to 2003. Married, 2 kids, lots more worries about job/ college savings/ etc. I'll be 40 in Feb. '04. All summer my weight was at 177-179 (so 10 lbs lighter). I bike better now that at 30 - although the Yaqui has _a lot_ to do with that. But I can't run anymore. 5k times are 18. Despite my best efforts, I wasn't able to break 6 min pace in any of the tris I did this summer. 3 hour marathon? He-he-he.

Why? I don't know yet. I was probably running about 10 miles/week more then than now (now it's 25-30 miles/week). But the training pace now is _way_ different. I'm much slower in training and trying to pick up the pace just leaves me drained. Or injured.

I think that with _a lot_ of dedication in training, you might be able to get back some of your previous speed. You might even lose some weight while at it. But, unfortunately, the effects of aging can't be denied...

Horia

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 5:14

Post #15 of 23 (4102 views)

Some more anecdotal evidence here. I finished winter weight training at 180 at the end on January. I had raced IM Moo at 160 earlier that year. So I put on 20 lbs (mostly muscle, some fat) I looked good for being in the gym, bad for being on the road. I looked and felt more like a weight lifter than a triathlete. My climbing and running were suffering, but that was the plan.

I slowly wittled the weight off through a full spring of tri training and a more focused diet. My early season races did not go great, but I was also 10-12 lbs heavier still at that point.

I am now usually right at 150 and am running the fastest I ever have (sub 6min/mile for 5 miles on our thursday training runs vs 7-8min/mile last year). I have run PR's in training this year for almost every distance from the mile to 15 miles. Obviously this weight fluctuation was done on purpose. I am trying to peak for PM Tennessee and Great Floridian, so I had all year to do it and all winter to spend it the gym.

Conclusion, my weight loss, although planned, plus the gained strength from the gym have been huge factors in my improved running and climbing on the bike.

Disclaimer, I am 25, so take that into account. I am just wondering at what age I will not be able to take the weight back off???

Re: Run speed and weight [stltricoach] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 5:22

Post #16 of 23 (4095 views)

stltricoach asked "I am just wondering at what age I will not be able to take the weight back off???"

My especially well-informed answer: don't wait until you're 50 to find out!!!!!

Years ago during the "running boom" someone - maybe George Sheehan - claimed a time/weight relationship. Something like 5 secs/mile gained per 2 lbs of extra body weight in a 10k. I've looked all over the web since without ever being able to find anything like that so far, but I'm still looking.

Re: Run speed and weight [flyebaby] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 8:01

Post #17 of 23 (4029 views)

In Reply To:

Years ago during the "running boom" someone - maybe George Sheehan - claimed a time/weight relationship. Something like 5 secs/mile gained per 2 lbs of extra body weight in a 10k. I've looked all over the web since without ever being able to find anything like that so far, but I'm still looking.

The link I provided above mentions Sheehan and his ideas about weight and running. The article doesn't list the time savings per lb. lost, however.

Here is another good article from the same site: http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh01.php

Another good site I just found a week ago is this one: http://www.nutrawatch.com/. You can sign up for free and keep track of all your meals. It has pie charts and everything to give you a breakdown of your diet, which has helped me keep the calories and % of Carb/Pro/Fat where I want them.

Dave in WI
-----------------------------------------------------
"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

Re: Run speed and weight [R Isgrigg] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 8:33

Post #18 of 23 (4007 views)

In Reply To:

Less white rice more brown rice

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 9:06

Post #19 of 23 (3981 views)

quote: "I am talking about using a diet to force a weight drop in an already fit person and getting better performance as a result."

I believe it will. One of the few times I've dieted was while trying to get below 34m for 10k. I was maxed out on training mileage and intensity, so decided to try a bit of dieting. Not really a diet, I just skipped the 'vetkoek' (literally, 'fat cakes', dough fried in grease and stuffed with mince, mmmm) for lunch, upped the fruit intake, and lowered bread/cereal. Dropped from 158 to 153 lbs and dropped 50sec from the 10k time. I've run faster since at 156lbs. Currently at 165 and much older and slower.. but then again I'm running 8 miles a week instead of 60-70.

As a general rule, losing weight by increasing training is much more effective. I've been as low as 130lbs after illness, even months after the illness and back up to 140's, running performance was impaired. Equally, dieting below 150lbs wasn't helpful for me, seem to get injured too easily at that point.

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

Re: Run speed and weight [Dave in WI] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 10:03

Post #20 of 23 (3946 views)

the #'s i remember are elite runners weigh 2 pounds for every inch of height - obviously very light

6'0" = 72" =144 pounds

and then for marathon performance , 1 pound extra = 1 extra minute, so 26 pounds over equal 1 mile per minute slower & 13 pounds = 1/2 minute per mile slower

i think in biking hills it might be even more dramatic - there was a recent article in one of the bike mags about the increased wattage required to lug extra weight up a hill - it was significant

FWIW - i am 45, 6'0" and 185 with fairly low body fat. I'm trying to get those extra pounds off and it is certainly tougher than it used to be. I used to be sub 3 a long time ago at about 160 pounds. 3 years ago i weighed 240.

the only thing that works for me is a sensible diet and lots of time training

Re: Run speed and weight [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 10:40

Post #21 of 23 (3920 views)

I felt the same way 5 years ago (caveat, I'm only 35, so what do I know yet?). I was running marathons and not losing any weight. I figured I was at my ideal weight. Then I started actually watching what I ate, it started out simple: One dessert a week. I didn't change anything else, I just stopped eating sweets after every meal. In 2 months I'd lost 10 lbs. At the end of 2 months I eased up and ate more than 1 a week, but not what I'd been doing before, and my weight stayed even.

Next up was Pop (or soda for those of you in the mid west). I just quick altogether, along with reduced sweets, I lost 6 lbs in 2 months. ease up again and maintain. Right now, I'm a couple pounds short of loosing 40 total from what I thought was my ideal weight.

Here's what I believe, the excercise makes it easy to maintain, but without controlling the diet carefully, you won't loose weight. Keep in mind the hours that Lance spends on the bike, yet in the race season he weighs everything he eats. it's a combo deal (and I'm not talking about a supersize meal!) the idea that you can eat whatever you want because you excercise all the time, may keep you from getting worse, but it won't help you reduce and find out what you're really capable of.

today, I'm running faster than I ever thought possible, and can climb on the bike better than most people I ride with.

Re: Run speed and weight [brad in WA] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 11:08

Post #22 of 23 (3899 views)

I'll throw my anecdote into the ring. My caveat is that I'm 33, so I don't know much about it, either. Last year at this time I was 6'4" at 230 lbs. I'd been essentially sedentary for 4 1/2 years.

Background note: I have a thin body frame (graduated high school at 185 lbs... that was pretty skinny) and was a basketball player in high school and college.

Nearly as year later, I've dropped almost 35 lbs (Last time I stepped on the scale, I was 198). I credit the weight loss to two major factors:

Aerobic Exercise - I'm not sure I've ever exercised this much in my life. Basketball practice was always several hours per week, but there was a lot of standing around, so it wasn't as consistently aerobic.

I think the majority of my gains (or losses, as the case may be) come merely from exercising. I've always had a decent metabolism, and stimulating it with exercise probably helped the most.
Slightly changed eating habits - The big factor here was slowing down on the alcohol consumption. For a loooooong time, my wife and I would average 3/4 of a bottle of wine per night (some weeks, it was a bottle a night). Happy hours and weekend parties would add even more. Now, because I train so much, the last thing I want in the evening is a glass of wine or a beer. It just doesn't taste good to me after a workout.

The other major change was not eating less, but eating more often. Instead of three huge meals a day, I now have five small-to-medium meals per day. I haven't changed a whole lot about what I eat (although if I can find a non-fried option, I'll usually take it, and I have cut out nightly desserts or I fruit instead).

I suppose that if I engaged in serious diet control, and cut out all the things still in my diet that are nutritionally questionable, I'd probably see even bigger gains. However, I don't think I'd enjoy life as much. Maybe if I really start to develop the desire to get on the podium, I'll think about a more serious diet control program.

---> Steve

Re: Run speed and weight [doug in co] [ In reply to ]

Sep 26, 03 16:16

Post #23 of 23 (3808 views)

UPDATE! New Flash ...

I weighed 159 this morning (fed and hydrated).

First time under 160 since college (1984). When I got off the couch in July 2001, I weighed 188. I'm 5'11", FWIW.

I also just thought of something...somebody posted above about dropping alcohol. Now that I think about it, my wife and I dropped nightly wine from our routine about 6 weeks ago, right when I started dropping weight again. Hmmm...

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