Dollars to doughnuts this has something to do with the proximity of your pelvis relative to the bottom bracket- i.e., on the P3 you're closer to your "sweet spot" and on the Trek you may be (just guessing) a bit behind it. I wonder, on the Trek is the center of your pelvis super far behind the bottom bracket? Do you have (relatively) short femur bones compared to your leg length? And, not to state the obvious, but: Saddle (vertical) height identical? Saddles identical? Cranks identical brand and length? Same pedal system? All key variables...

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

First of all, what is exactly the sweet spot, and how easy is it to find? In other words, when you have a customer come into your shop, and you perform your fit session on them, does this generally place a person in a sweet spot, or is a sweet spot found only through small adjustments after lots of riding and experience in the position you place a person in? Can you tell if someone is in their sweet spot with a few measurements off of say a photograph?

With all this talk of fit, I find my self wondering how subtle of a thing it is. If possible, I think it would be extremely helpful if denewone was able to post some side views of himself on the forum on both bikes, and then let some of the fit gurus compare and contrast the two. I realize the internet is littered with pictures that compare fit, but this seems like an interesting example to me that might give everyone more of a feel for this stuff, as well as give another example of the differences between road and tri fit.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

Fitting someone on a bicycle is not a black art, mysticism or rocket science. You don't have to be a "Guru", licensed physical therapist or grizzled old Italian grump who talks about how great Fausto was. It is common sense mechanics and basic arithmatic. In retrospect, using the term "Sweet Spot" was not entirely responsible on my part because it fosters this mystic, "Guru" baloney. Having said that I believe experience and training plays a role in fitting someone correctly on an existing bike, selecting a new bike for them or simply making a few small adjustments. Speaking entirely candidly, I'm not willing to publish a meticulous protocol for fitting a bicycle on the Slowtwitch forum (Dan has already done a better job than I could ever do on the site proper)or on my own website. It would be like the roofer giving you lessons on installing shingles: It gives away my trade. Now that "fit" is the big buzzword and everyone is doing triathlons (and I can actually make a living at last)all kinds of people are calling themselves "bike fitters" and "getting into triathlon bikes". Hopefully this excitement will produce a new generation of fitters because, as Khai mentioned on this forum in a post some time ago- I said in a bike review published on my own website "There are only about 10 people in the U.S. who can accurately fit someone on a triathlon bike". That's my story and I'm sticking to it. It's true. But for every one of them there are probably five who think they can do it. I can't position someone on a bike from looking at a photograph. I have to first measure them, put them on a bike, then have them pedal and re-measure them again (joint angles)to confirm my math was correct. That's a protocol we've developed here in our store over 20 years of practice and experience. I recently tried using another person's (Ves' from Yaqui)fitting protocal and quickly got an e-mail back from him saying my own measurements "couldn't be right". That is because Ves is using a significantly different fit protocol than we do. Since we want to sell Yaqui bikes, and I am buying one (to go along with my two Cervelos for this year)I'm going to make a point of learning Ves' of Yaqui fit protocol as best I can. Sorry to be long winded, I hope I answered your question somewhere in there.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom,

Loved your comment about the "grizzled old Italian grump who talks about how great Fausto was". I know a guy just like that. Great mechanic.

I'm a little skeptical though that you feel there are only ten people that could properly set up a tri bike. This isn't mysticism and much of this info is readily availble on the web if one digs for it. I've spent many hours reading everything that I can find on bike fitting. When my wife got her P2K we set her up according to our available info. We then had a pro fit for her at one of the well known high end bike shops and our home fit job was pretty well right on. No doubt the net research paid off and it helped that my wife has a background in kinesiology/biomechanics. Obviously we don't have your experience and I'm sure that there are some insider tricks that we aren't aware of, but I do feel that the info is readily available for most people to set up their own bikes fairly correctly. It's just a matter of deciphering and laying it out in a logical manner. I'm a mediocre swimmer and a crappy runner. The bike is my thing, so I make a point at tris to see what/how people ride. It does amaze me how many people have their bikes set up wrong at a typical event.

You're right. There almost HAS to be more than ten people. I should probably start re-phrasing that comment to something like "Ten people I am aware of" or something of the sort. Actually, I've been called out on that statement several times on this forum- including one where the poster asked me to submit a list of what bike shops these people worked at (It was Khai if my memory serves me correctly). But yeah, essentially you are correct- I agree, there are certainly more than ten people. Also, I have seen some people come in who have "fitted themselves" and their position was very good and needed only minor adjustments they probably could have done themselves but it helped them to have a second set of eyes.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

But my intention (as you well know) wasn't to "call you out" per se. I was just curious to see which were the shops you respected, as a hard core perfectionist.

I'd be interested to know if you've made any changes to your protocol, or are perhaps thinking about it after attending Dan's FIST camp?

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Tom take a minute and get your story correct, only ten people huh?Your one?Ves fromYaqui is one? Dan/slowtwitch is one? I am sure John Cobb might be one. You said to sell Yaqui bikes you had to change a system you have been using for twenty years,so who is correct??? I have fit a few in my time/fit myself,and seem to be a pretty good time trialist,I have learned a lot since you started posting,but your last post scares me,sounds like you sold out to sell bikes,Really only ten,Well hell i am the best machinist on earth then.Randall

Funny after all the dicussion I'm still confussed about bike fitting. I've read alot about it. Ihave helped people buy and fit bikes. I am so dumb compared to most but it seems fit is very individual and it depends on body geometry, flexibility, comfort vs speed, I always start with the basics . Test watts while making minor adjustments, Leave room for adjustment when flexibility improves, body adjusts to angle, and then ride with them on the road to make final adjustments.
This has always been part of the price of the bike and I love to do it . Now I see an expert could have made a major difference.

Hi Randall, like the other couple posters who pointed this out I think you are right: There are likely to be more than 10 people in the U.S. who can fit bikes correctly. -Certainly some flaws in my statement. I think you understand my point was that few people understand fit and can do it correctly. To make matters worse (and I don't intend to offend any posters out there) there is a substantial contingent of people who think they know bike fit but don't. Like an airline pilot with 3000 hours flight time, they know just enough to think they know it all. Another clarification I should make, and I will victimize you as my example: You may have fitted your bike to you very well, perfectly in fact. However, Given an environment where you need to fit five people in a day, build six additional bikes and be sure all of them are (as close to) mechanically perfect as possible and you only have about 1&1/2 hours to work with each customer, your effectiveness may be substantially degraded. As we said in the military, we are the "pointy end of the bayonet" We are responsible for getting the fit right the first time, without fail and doing the mechanical assembly flawlessly, regardless of what the manufacturer sent to us to work with. More specifically, yes, I believe there are very few people or stores in the U.S. with that set of capabilities and a high enough state of readiness to deploy those capabilities consistently and repeatably on short notice. That is the misson we are tasked with.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom i would never try to compare to your fitting experience,and i know how a customer feels when paying for a service,and i know how it feels to have a trade and have people think that they know as much,but i think there is room for variables in fit,you state this when you said Ves has different ways than you. I am glad you go to the lengths to measure so carefully and i am sure you are very successful.Randall

Great point! I wish we had someone like you close!

I believe there is such a thing as a "Sweet Spot" In cycling. I sure know when I have found it on my bikes. The pedalling suddenly becomes easier at a given level of resistance. It's a great sensation. It's the same as hitting a golf ball or a tennis ball just so - the ball seems to jump off the club-head or raquet with extra energy.

I do not have the experince that Tom D or Dan E have in this area. But I always kept a set of allan keys hand when doing winter indoor workouts on my bike and would always take the allan keys with me on early season rides and fiddle a little here and a little there with position and fit. With new bikes it was the same, use some basic math and trig to get the gross measurements right and then start fiddling.

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