why don't you want disc brakes??

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found some more pros on the soma: "Another lower priced option are the SOMA frames. These are made with Reynolds 631 main triangles and double butted stays. They come from the same factory as Surly and are similar in concept (designed by locals but paid for/distributed by a national wholesaler) When we got the first SOMA frames in I was surprised to find they weighed only a little more than a Gunnar. We didn't bother weighing them but I'd say the difference was maybe 1/4 pound for a 56cm. The SOMA's also have more rack braze-ons (front and rear) and are better suited for touring than the Gunnars (the stays on the Gunnar are a bit too light for loaded panniers) The SOMA frames also have a little more tire clearance in back than the Gunnar. They retail for around $450 frame/fork. See: http://www.somafab.com/frames.html"

Discs are heavier, and an unfamiliar technology to me since I am used to rim brakes on bikes and have used them for years - discs seem unecessary for my needs.

discs work better in wet weather, and aren't a lot heavier. Besides, if you are looking at steel frames with rack eyelets, are you really that worried about weight??

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Nah - I'm just a luddite/ traditionalist I guess - maybe they are better but since I never had them and am perfectly happy with my rim brakes I say if it aint broke dont fix it - I have parts for rim brakes and 5 wheelsets for rim brakes I have 0 parts related to disc brakes. Also I'm not worried about weight but wouldn't mind not building up a tank if possible - I love the ride of steel and usually slap ultegra and some other good parts on to get a pretty light bike - you feel weight on climbs and accelerations and faster = funner!

unless the gunnar is much more expensive it isn't even a decision that requires thought IMO. I would go for the gunnar hands down. I had a chance to get one and passed for a surly. stupid.

Dan
http://www.aiatriathlon.com

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I've got a Poprad from a few years ago - it's a ton of fun. Feels fantastic even on Colorado singletrack (yes, I'm an idiot) with a steel fork, no less. Pre-disk brakes, so I can't comment on that aspect. Love mine, though.

Well,
I have a Crosshairs and I got my wife a Double Cross recently. If you want a race bike, Gunnar's the name, but from your original post it sounds like you want a commuter and for this, I'd recommend saving money and getting the Double Cross.

The wife's bike is pretty nice. It's got eyelets front and rear, and even low rider braze-ons on the fork so if you want to *commute*, you can outfit the thing with packs all around. Her bike's sporting 32s with fenders and there's some room left so if you like to ride marshmallows, you'll be able to get them to fit.

I don't know where you got your info, but the new Double Cross has Prestige front and sewer pipes rear: they don't seem to be using 631 anymore. Fork is Prestige also.

My Crosshairs is way fancier, but it's also twice the price. The welds are nicer (I didn't say better or more reliable, I said nicer) and the paint job is hard to beat ("color of the month" is an all out Waterford job). I don't know about the Gunnar fork (already had a straight blade unicrown made by IF with the right axle/crown and rake measurements).

The Double Cross runs a tad long (not unlike the Gunnar) so pick your size wisely.

Dre'


Edit:
I just checked. The Gunnar frameset will run you about $1000, whereas the Double Cross frameset can be delivered to your door for less than $400. Not quite the same league ...

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A good friend / teammate has a Gunnar.... It's basically an Ind. Fabrications..... either way. beautiful bike..... my vot is got for the Gunnar!

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"Pace is just a matter of having enough RedBull..." -Rappstar

Depends on what type of deal you can get on the gunnar. I have a street dog in some fancy-schmancy, cinnamon candy over fine gold color of the month that is soooo badass. It's funny that dre's posted on this thread, it was one of his posts about his gunnar 3 years or so ago that got me to buy one (i think his is green?). Anyway, the gunnar is high zoot, in a grungy cool way. It's my favorite bike out of my stable. Get one!

> i think his is green?

March '04 Color of the Month: yellow candy over clover green.

Dre'

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I don't really know what a towpath is, nor do I have any idea as to your intended usage - but given those three options I'd go Gunnar.

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towpath - not sure if its spelled correctly is an old trail that oxen used to pull barges down a canal on - essentially a really long hardpack path that runs from New Brunswick to trenton and along the delaware river in NJ - great place to ride on since no cars and by water. There are some rough rocky sections on it though that I have gone over on my mountain bike and am hoping as I get fit and drop a bit of weight I can tackle them on a cross bike without damaging wheels etc...

I am about to pull the trigger on the Gunnar - the new somas are made out of crap steel - bad move on Somas part should have stuck with the reynolds 631 and I might have been a customer.

Sounds like an excellent application for a 'cross bike! Worst case scenario you can practice your dismount/run/flying mount. :)

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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> the new somas are made out of crap steel

Huh?
Do you have any idea how to compare grades of steel across different brands? Or do you say this to agree with everybody else who think it's a "no brainer" that the $1000 frameset is better(*) than the $400 frameset?

I really don't care what you buy, but claiming Prestige is a downgrade over 631 is flat out wrong.

Dre'

(*) For what you intend to do, the features of the Soma do make it the "better" bike.

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I haven't done much research on prestige steel - I took the 'sewer pipe' rear triangle to mean heavy tubing - also I heard 631 was the same tubing as 853 just not welded as well or air hardened or something - is prestige good stuff? Whats it comparable to? I love hearing about steels and the making of bikes...

"Sewer pipe" is 4130 CrMo. Generic CrMo, if you wish. It's not bad, it's just not "technologically advanced". If you look around, there's custom builders who'll sell a $2500 frame made of 4130. Steel is steel, for the most part. A thick tube will be heavier than a thin one (!), but physically identical tubes of 4130 and 853 will weigh the same. It's just you could make the 853 tube thinner because the alloy is stronger.

The "old" Soma had 631 front triangle and 4130 rear. The new ones have Prestige front, with the same rear end. Prestige is made by Tange. 631 is Reynolds. Different brands. 631 is air hardened (i.e. the welds get stronger than the tube is originally). Prestige is heat treated so the whole tube has the qualities of the welds of 631 (not quite accurate, but you get the idea). Prestige is "between" 631 and 853. 631 is air hardened, Prestige is heat treated, 853 is heat treated and air hardened.

Anyway, yes, the steel on the Gunnar is better, the paint's nicer and the welds are cleaner. This all comes at a price which is a tad over twice that of the Soma. You have to decide how important these things are. You shold really look at the features of the bikes with respect to intended use instead of deciding based on the properties of the steel alloy used in the fabrication (it really doesn't matter: we're talking 1/4 pound or something). The Gunnar is a 'cross bike, a racing bike. The Soma is a 'cross bike, but more of a touring bike. If you think you want panniers and fenders, the Soma will make your life easier. That's my opinion anyway.

Dre'

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I've ridden all three briefly... none for an extended time. I think the Poprad was the most impressive, gunnar was good too, but felt heavy. the Soma did nothing for me.

Note: the road BB7's calipers are not good enough with a road lever... I'd rather have a cantilever.

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The Dude abides.

The lemond I can get at a good price is a tad large for me and is the most expensive.

The Soma I would have to buy new since I can't find a good price or deal on one new or used. That might be a good sign about them.

The Gunnar I found is my size and is the cheapest of the three (and comes with a fork) by the time you add a fork to the other two.

(I am buying a frame, preferably used and will build it with the Ultegra group on my 853 steel road bike)

So my wallet likes the Waterford crosshairs. The poet/ adventurer in me is strangely drawn to the Soma but it will end up being $100 more than the Gunnar... The Lemond seems nice but the only good deal on a frame I can find is a 57cm thats being sold cause the original owner found the frame too big and had to downsize - I ride a 57cm Merlin Agilis, a 57cm litespeed saber and a 56cm KHS flite 800 - they all fit pretty well. The lemond is the most expensive of the three...

So the money is on the gunnar, the heart is kind of set on the soma and the poprad I've dismissed as having braking issues/ fit issues and being the most expensive option...

> ... the heart is kind of set on the soma ...

Well there you go. What's $100? Go with what moves you.

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If you're talking about spending a grand, you've got lots of options. You might even be able to get an Indy Fab for very little more.

I've got a new '07 55cm lemond frameset sitting around... but this would mean running discs.

The gunnar would be a good deal, no question

If you really want the lemond, be patient. a used frame/bike will eventually turn up and it should end up being cheaper than the gunnar

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The Dude abides.

as in sitting around does that mean 'for sale'? If so pm me a price...

I have a line on a used gunnar crosshairs frame and fork for $350 - the Soma is $293 just for the frame and the Lemond is more than both just for a used frame only with no fork.

So I'm getting the Gunnar at the moment - its a 2001 - how worried about rust should I be? The owner says it was raced a few times but has no dents or scratches and it looks good in the pics... I guess a bunch of WD40 and then maybe some framesaver might be in order...

I should probably do this to my two other 853 frames while I'm at it.

The lemond is new. We were looking for a frame for a customer and called trek to see if they had any frames left over with canti studs. They assured us that the '07 framesets had canti studs and the complete bikes were disc. When the frame got here, it was disc, so now it's about to go back to Trek. $650 and it's yours - that's a new frame and CF fork.

As you might expect, rust is a problem with steel frames. Take a good look at how deep the rust is, then assume that it's a little deeper. I wouldn't be very excited if the rust is near the BB or head tube. If it's just superficial and in the middle of a tube, it's not such a big deal.

For sure framesave any frame you end up getting.

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The Dude abides.

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