If it works, it's not for IM racing. And that is a big if.

Hey Paulo,

I agree, it definitely seems to be an IF it works sorta thing, since there are studies that show it being very effective, and others showing it to be utterly worthless.

Several books I've read reference it as being an effective supplement. Not sure if that is the various authors' n=1, or just that they used the results of whatever study agreed with their conclusions.

So, IF it works, do you think it might be useful for shorter distances?

I was kicking around the idea of trying it for my opening HIM this year, since that's kinda a B race anyway.

Hammer makes something called Race Day Boost that is a sodium phosphate product.
I wonder if any ST'ers have used it?

(I don't know of any others still in existance, since Phos Fuel by TwinLab was discontinued)
I know we have several Hammer-sponsored ST'ers around, I'd like to hear if any of them have used it, and what their results might have been.
(yes, I know that would n=small # anecdotal evidence, but that's sometimes nice to evaluate too)

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float , hammer , and jog

Here's some valuable info for those that want to try it

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/...er.fcgi?artid=292432

sodium phosphate interferes with calcium absorption so it would make sense that bone loss would occur over a prolonged period. When you are using it for racing you are usually taking a few grams a day the week leading up to a race. It is something that not effective for racing if used for a long period of time.

Thx for the link. Interesting.

OK, so dogs who ingest it daily for 10 months straight have some not-good adverse side effects.
(I'm sure the same could be said for Quiznos or Cold Stone or Mickey D's or... ;-)

From what I've read, the recommended dosing is for 4 days prior to race day, but not on raceday. Apparently it can cause GI distress if taken on raceday.

And only 2x / year (or 3x if 'perfectly' spaced 4 months apart for each race).
So a typical athlete would be using this stuff for 8 days in a given year. 12 max.


Do ya know of any studies about the performance-enhancing (or lack thereof) qualities of it, if taken as recommended?
Thx,
-M

PS - I googled up this, FWIW:

One of the first studies reported on phosphate was conducted by Dr. Robert Cade and his associates at the University of Florida. In a double blind, placebo-controlled crossover study, highly trained runners took one gram of phosphate four times daily for six days. The phosphate salts increased the concentration of 2,3-DPG in red blood cells , which resulted in an increase in VO2 max (a measure of maximal oxygen consumption and thus, aerobic fitness). Remember, the 2,3-DPG facilitates the release of oxygen to muscles, increasing their ability to perform powerful contractions and sustain them. Dr. Cade also demonstrated that the amount of lactate produced during a standard exercise workload was lower, and a reduced sensation of physiological stress was noted during exercise.

In a more recent study, Dr. Richard Kreier (University of Memphis), using highly trained cross-country runners as subjects, found that one gram of phosphate four times daily for six days resulted in significant increases in VO2 max (approximately 10 percent). This gain was very similar to the improvement noted in Dr. Cade’s study.

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float , hammer , and jog

More google action, stuff that was on Rich S's forum back in the day.

http://www.cruciblefitness.com/...pic.asp?TOPIC_ID=302

Interesting discussion and some additional links therein.


Wonder if there's anything more recent anywhere?

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float , hammer , and jog

We need to get AC to post on this. I remember an interesting conversation about this in the defunct gordo forum. He says phosphate supplementation doesn't work.

I like to use it leading up to an A race, but I use it for cycling events RR/Crit/TT. As far as teh GI problems I have experienced those during the few days prior to racing. Keep in mind that sodium phosphate is given to patients a few days leading up to a colonoscopy. I find myself using this stuff once a month during the road race season (about four days a month).

Agreed. He'd certainly have more up-to-date info than what I dredged up on google.


I'd be willing to be a guinea pig for this, if anybody's interested.
Like I said, I was toying with the idea of doing so already.

Dunno how I'd quantify the results, given that I would only be doing it for a race, and it's not like I'd do the race without, then use the supplement, then do the race again.
It'd be anecdotal at best <insert groans here>

I'd only be risking $15 for the stuff, and potentially one race.

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float , hammer , and jog

Allright, we need 2 people then. One gets the real stuff, one gets sugar pills. Come on, we have to control for placebo effect!

;-)

Jodi

Get Dev to do it too and you'll have irrefutable scientific evidence ;-)

Give it to all the forum poster's dogs. Then we'll finally have a On topic dog thread. :-)

BTW...wouldn't one of the two have to be given a placebo for it to be irrefutable?

I have used it a 4-5 times, maybe once a yr. Performance wise I think it helps, but the time I have used coincides with race I have trained well for...so not sure if its been good training, the phos, or both. Used the loading protocol described on the 1 ed. of Training Bible. Races I have used it are less than HIM. I have found it can be a double edge sword, it lowers RPE (I guess same as boosting VO2) so it allowed to swim and bike harder without knowing it....and have paid for it during the run...which is my weakness. I have had some cramping issues during hot races ...could be the phos, could be the going harder, could be both. Not much help I know....but I have not experienced any other negative effects. I am a MOP guy so it may have a lot more effect on me (real or placebo) than a FOP person.

No. The tests would be done with both of the participants using PC's, one with a aero-helmet and the other not. Performance would be measured by timing them going down a big hill. On consecutive days they both take and stop taking sodium triphospate. Results would be considered universal.

I'd like to add a few points if I may:

Paulo: "If it works, it's not for IM racing. And that is a big if" - spot on

NTM: correct, a few grams over a few days will unlikely waste your bones

Murphy: the studies you referenced by Cade and Kreider: some glaring discrepencies there: Cade saw 2,3-DPG to increase, and Kreider didn't, so this can't explain the increased performance. Plus, things that change association of oxygen to hemoglobin (the exact role of 2,3-DPG) are not necessarily expected to change VO2max. Kreider also saw the VO2max to increase by almost 10%. From a few days of phosphate supplementation? Seriously, that's not a supplement, it's a wonder drug. If you get that from 4 weeks of EPO you're doing well.

Lets consider the reason why you would take phophate supplements. The phosphate buffer system is one of the buffers in blood. That means it "defends" against rise in acid concentration (hydrogen ions, from production of lactate, breakdown of ATP, etc). Given that you need extremely intense exercise, in the face of normal buffer capacity, to change blood pH, then what will extra buffers do for half/full IM? Hence Paulo's big "IF". Buffering is not really even a limit to VO2max, so this might question the above mentioned studies further.

Next point to consider is the minor role phosphate plays in buffering. It pails in significance to the bicarbonate buffer system. If your game is something that puts the buffer systems under pressure, then why stuff around with phosphate buffers when you can boost your bicarb buffering, and do it on the day of competition (assuming you can avoid GI upsets). It has been studied much more, and shown to be effective in at least some circumstances.

With that, I'm off to the chemist to get some sodium phosphate. I'm going to do a max test in the near future and I want to get 10% more than I ever have before.....

doc,
fleets phosphosoda makes a great enema ... probably its best usage???? Don't let us know if you decide to drink one .... should make you "run" faster.
Dave

It works even better orally, if you don't mind urinating from the wrong orifice.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Trev,

If you, I, Dev and ML go on this stuff, I figure the Northeast Clique can probably sweep the first four places at Tupper Lake. Then we can publish the results of our scientific study of how to kick ass in the Portugese Journal of Physiology or something like that. Are you in?

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*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."

Nah....I've been experimenting with using Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout this year. Hey...it was originally prescribed to lactating mothers so it can't be that bad. :-)

Well, you've gotta mix the Sodium Phos into *something*, after all, so.....

How's about we all do a supplement cocktail of Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout (their Taddy Porter and Nut Brown Ale are also quite yummy and do a body good) AND the Sodium Phosphate for Tupper Lake??

I know tetsuoni supplements quite liberally with stout as well (he's a Guinness man), and he's a pretty speedy dude too. Seems to work for him. I think he's doing Tupper too - we could take the top 5 spots then :)


<< the Portugese Journal of Physiology >>

Paulo has a blog now? ;-)

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float , hammer , and jog

I don't think EPO, HGH and testosterone will get me into the top 5.

Guiness is great but I need Bushmills not Phos fuel to really make it work. :-)

I prefer that 'Double chocolate Stout' yum!!!!!!!!

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.