Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Junk Miles?
Quote | Reply
Do you agree with this? I feel like there is no such thing as "junk" miles. If have long hours at work, commuting, family, other commitments, any time you can sneak in a training session whether it has a specific purpose or plan doesn't matter -- if I can run for 30 minutes on a treadmill or bike home from work, whatever, training is training. I notice good gains in fitness and race performance from simply putting in more time. I feel this is especially true for IM training.

The comment at the end really throws me, 10 hours of specific training is better than 15 hours of random training? That's 5 more hours of time each week!


http://www.triathletemag.com/...ing_with_purpose.htm
Junk the junk by training with purpose By Matt Russ

Jan. 22, 2007 -- Before you begin your training for the day you should ask yourself one question: "What is the specific purpose of this workout?" If you do not know the answer, then it is likely the value of the workout will be equally in doubt. In order for your fitness to improve, you must place a new stressor on your body and then allow yourself to recover from it. If it is the same amount of physical stress, or less, or if recovery does not occur, then overload will not take place. Fatigue is not necessarily a good indicator of progress, either. If you begin a workout fatigued, sore and generally tired and then go through the motions, you are only breaking your body down further and delaying recovery. Being tired does not in any way mean that you are getting faster.

When I examine an athlete's training plan for the first time I usually find a lot of junk miles. These are the miles that do not really have a specific purpose but are there because the athlete feels they need to train that day. The junk workout is almost always general in format and redundant. Often this time would be better spent recovering or performing a shorter, more specific workout that targets a particular limiter. Do not confuse hours with quality training. Your long workout addresses a particular fitness substrate: endurance. Endurance is very important, even the most important fitness substrate for long events, but it is certainly not the only one.

Define the purpose
The athlete that simply trains the most does not win. The athlete that trains the most effectively does. Assume your limiter is climbing on the bike. To address this limiter you could go ride several hours on a hilly course.

Before you choose your workouts you should identify your fitness limiters and your goals for the season. Are you a weak climber? Does your economy and form need work? Do you lack power in the flats? What sport do you need to spend the most time addressing? Your workouts should address these questions specifically. Now think about your goals and peak race(s). When is your race? What is the racecourse like? Where will your weakness be? The answers to these questions should largely determine how your training plan builds out.

Now that you know what to target, you must choose the right workouts at the right time. If you are an underpowered cyclist, strength training during your base phase will help increase force production. In consideration, you will have to lower your weekly saddle hours as you spend more training time in the gym. If you are a weak swimmer, spend time correcting your stroke. This may mean reducing the run and bike on some weeks as you spend more time in the water or with a coach. Realize that a general plan will not address your needs specifically. In order to reach your true potential you may need a plan that is as unique as you are.

Training requires energy
We often have athletes come to us chronically injured, burned out, and/or over-trained. By reducing their training volume to a more manageable level we are able to make these athletes faster. In reviewing their training plans we get rid of the junk miles first. It is a mental adjustment for them when we step down volume. Only when they have more energy to train effectively and become more balanced in their bodies and lifestyle do they get on board. The athletes begin to get faster and they realize some of the shorter workouts are some of the hardest and most effective. Reducing their total hours does not mean they do not train hard. In fact, they are able to train much harder than when they were chronically fatigued. They just don't train as often (instead, they make every workout count by ensuring every training session has a purpose and is designed to contribute to overall fitness development) and are allowed more recovery time. You only have a finite amount of energy to put forth. Where, when and how you apply your energy determines the efficacy of your training.

There is always a compulsion to do more. This is a natural impulse, but adding in a workout that has no real purpose can work against you. When your body is broken down and you are training simply because you feel you have to, it is non-productive. Resist that compulsion to throw random workouts in that may impair recovery. Only train with purpose.

Don't confuse quantity with high-quality training. The athlete that trains 15 hours of random miles per week is not as effective as the athlete training 10 hours of directed and specific training. This athlete targets strength, power, aerobic capacity, endurance, or anaerobic endurance, in the right mix, at the right time.



Matt Russ has coached and trained elite athletes from around the country and internationally for over 10 years. He currently holds expert licenses from USA Triathlon, USA Cycling and is a licensed USA Track and Field Coach. Matt is head coach and owner of The Sport Factory and works with athletes of all levels full time. He is a freelance author and his articles are regularly featured in a variety of magazines and Web sites. Visit www.thesportfactory.com for more information, or e-mail him at coachmatt@thesportfactory.com.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When I read that I think about my own experiences. When I focus on a goal and train with focus I see much better results than I do with general "I want to get better at everything" type training. If you were to focus 6 or 7 of the 10 hours on running and 3 to 4 hours on maintaining the swim and bike I think you'd see better results than splitting the time evenly between SBR, or at least in my experience you would.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [Adam C] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think we'd all agree that focused training is more efficient than non-focused training, and time is well spent addressing limiters. There is no shortage of articles/testimonials explaining that.

IMO, the OP is addressing the comment of "The athlete that trains 15 hours of random miles per week is not as effective as the athlete training 10 hours of directed and specific training. ", and I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of others.

I don't know the author or of his company, but IMO, the article reads as an advertisement. There are other statements in the article that seem suspect to me, but he's a licensed coach and I'm not, so I'll sit back and see what types of comments the articles generates on ST.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Training? Junk miles? What's the fuss all about?

I'm just a MOP agegrouper. I never train.

I ride my bike as often as possible because I love bike riding, I run for fun and sometimes, if I'm in the mood I hop into the pool and swim some lanes till the boredom sets in.

My one and only goal is: having fun while being in motion. Almost always I achieve it.

Frank

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
written by a sophomore...nothing that you can argue with, it all makes perfect sense, until you hit the real world of actually doing the amount of work any one needs to and just having to find the time to get the miles in...it isn't a perfect world and articles like this are written in a vacuum...kind a like if you simply swam total immersion all the time...you would swim less and get faster?...like the people who say you should be fresh for your long runs...how do you do that when you have 6 other workouts earlier that week or the week before?...do you take two days off before your long run and then a day after so that your next w/o is fresh too? that works out to 2 runs in 5 days...ain't gonna work...the classic common thread through articles like this are 'people come to me burnt out and injured all the time'...that is because they are doing too much for their fitness level, but improving 'quality' doesn't change the fact that they are doing too much in too little time.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As with any article you have to figure out who the intended audience is. I've definitely fallen victim of the same crime with some of the crap I've written. I'd invison a reader only to get lambasted by someone who is the complete opposite of what I intended my post to target.

In this case, most people don't train enough to be able to reach their potential. So an article about reducing training volume is not really what most people need to read. However, I don't really think that was the point of this author. This article, IMO, is intended to reach the unstructured athlete. I've seen many, many of these myself....they get together for their Saturday group ride, Sunday long run, Tuesday, Thursday am masters swim practice and Wednesday evening track practices.....fill in the gaps with some easy riding and running and do it year round (with some winter months adjustments).

Then there's the person that trains 20 hours a week with no intensity to prepare for a sprint, or the guy that will do a moderately hilly ride and count it has a "hill workout," etc, etc.

Like the second poster said, once you get a plan down (assuming it is an effective plan) you should see massive improvements over random training. In highschool I went from one coach who pretty much had the random "I don't know what I'm doing" plan to another coach who was an accomplished distance runner and had us on an effective plan. Someone from another school described me as "I woke up one day and all of the sudden I could run!"

Now this doesn't mean that part of the plan isn't "lots of easy workouts to increase my training volume for now,".....just make sure that that is what you intend to do and for the right reasons.

Like Kiri pointed out, he doesn't really offer any solutions beyond the need for focused training. Maybe it is just a sales pitch to hire a coach. I've certainly been accused of the same. ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As a former high level age grouper and more recent coach (since retirement), I agree with most of what the article states. Basically, junk miles don't do anything for the body. However, they may do something for the mind.

My own program during my racing career was based around focused workouts only - 3 run, 3 bike, 3 swim per week, each with the intent of working on something. However, sometimes my body didn't want to do the workout but my mind needed to do something. I never skipped the long workouts since they were required to keep the base for all the training and racing intact. It's also easier to control your training if you do it alone but sometimes we crave companionship.

I do agree with the statement that you can get more out of 10 focused hours per week than 15 unfocused hours. However, I doubt that anyone wold enjoy an Ironman on that level of training. I think you would need 15 focused hours with very long rides and bricks to set yourself up for an IM.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [Kiri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"written by a sophomore...nothing that you can argue with, it all makes perfect sense, until you hit the real world of actually doing the amount of work any one needs to and just having to find the time to get the miles in..."

Well I think what he said does make perfect sense in the real world. He's simply saying that if you plan your workouts for quality and work on your weaknesses that you may improve despite a decrease in overall training time. I didn't read his primary message to work out less, just smarter. I've stayed healthy and gotten faster doing zero junk mile workouts.

And we have seen real world examples of those using a similar approach and succeeding, such as Gina Kehr.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [c50jim] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My own program during my racing career was based around focused workouts only - 3 run, 3 bike, 3 swim per week, each with the intent of working on something.
______________________________________

This model is probably very typical for most triathletes. Definitely no room for junk there!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In this case, most people don't train enough to be able to reach their potential. So an article about reducing training volume is not really what most people need to read.
word
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm all about junk miles. Or "dingle dork" rides and runs as my Dad calls them ... But they still have a focus and a purpose: 2.5 mi. easy run warmup before a strength session; or a 45-min. easy "recovery" spin the day after a long ride, etc. ... Yesterday I ran "junk": 3 miles walk/run at 10-11 min. pace. It was a nice way to get out and recover from a half marthon race the day before. But like Barry said, most of us just have time for 3 sessions in each sport each week and those should be quite focused. It also depends on where you are in your season. If there are no important events on the horizon, mileage is mileage, the more and the easier the better, IMO.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Every year that I have increased my overall volume then I have continued to go faster at all distances without speedwork. IMO, the idea that you will get more out of “quality” workouts ignores the long term development of the athlete. In any given year you can use more “quality”—which I equate with speedwork or any effort that is not aerobic in nature—to be a faster racer than you were. You will also sharper more of the time. However, at the end of the year you will not have built up the necessary aerobic strength foundation to move to a new level of fitness. In the end, the best athletes do more volume than their contemporaries.
I asked Rappstar one time what kind of volume it takes to ride 2:08 in a half-Ironman compared to the six hours a week I was averaging at the time. He told me he did two to three times that amount.
People love to be told they can be faster by training less. Coaches probably even benefit from taking athletes who have been doing higher volume, put them on a lower volume regime with speedwork and then see the athletes improve their race times. I would expect that to happen for the first year. I would be very surprised to see those improvements continue year after year without an increase in volume.
Chad
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am not too sure there is such a thing as "junk miles". In thirty years from now you can look back and think that you may have enjoyed that 2hr Sunday coffee ride more than you thought. I remember every cinnamon roll ride that we did in 1968 -1972 like it was yesterday, but have long forgotten so many structured rides aimed at developing something or another.
My advice for everyone is taken from my canoe coach. The trip getting there damn well better justify the work and awards you pick up along the way, because in the end all you have left is the memories of the time spent getting there and a few trophies no one will really care about but you.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [G-man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
True enough. I think there are junk miles but not all easy workouts are junk miles. If you get something out of it, then it's worth it, whether it's training or fun. On the other hand I've known too many people that are just volume nuts. A 2hr spin Sunday night at 50% HR just to get to 20 hrs a week is junk miles. It can take away from your life but if you're working or playing or recovering then it's not junk miles. I ran every day for years and years and some days like when I ran 5km around the parkade at the Toronto airport were just plain junk, but 30 really easy minutes in a snowstorm or in sandals in Algonquin park were heaven.
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [G-man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Junk miles is a phrase coined by elitest runners in their attempt to lessen the acomplishments of athletes they percieve to be inferior to themselves. Any day you are on your feet running or riding or swimming has a benifit. Even if it is the few calories you burn instead of sitting on your ass on the couch. I managed to cut 1 hour off my marathon time and qualify for Boston running what many would consider junk miles. I call it aerobic training. It has also enabled me to complete 8 IM triathlons over the last 5 years with no injuries. I love "Junk Miles". Just my opinion. YMMV
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Coaches probably even benefit from taking athletes who have been doing higher volume, put them on a lower volume regime with speedwork and then see the athletes improve their race times. I would expect that to happen for the first year. I would be very surprised to see those improvements continue year after year without an increase in volume. "

Very good point.

I want to add another:

I think this is a very short-sided approach. It may give you immediate success, but is more likely to lead to "burn-out" in athletes.
I have seen a lot of highly focussed ahtletes leave the sport after they have "done" their "Ironman TM".

The so called "junk miles" keep you enjoying the lifestyle, keep it fun and don't make it feel like work. For most AGs it isn't.

And to finish it up: What may sound like junk miles to you, may be a valuable and goal-oriented workout to me.

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Quote Reply
Re: Junk Miles? [bigred3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm surprised there hasn't been more posting to this thread.

Junk miles?

Junk, to me, means without training/conditioning value. No running is junk, at least for everyone but super elite runners (and what's junk to them now is quite possibly what helped them reach elite status). Same for real swimming, which does NOT include PB work (definitely junk), drills that you don't need, and mindless perfuctory poor-form laps used to puff up your yardage counts.

Junk miles are a problem on the bike. I am highly skeptical of so-called "recovery" rides, and believe that you should either spin easy for 10-20 mins or rest entirely. No 2 hr recovery rides. Easy ride, sure. Recovery ride, no. I firmly believe that 4-6 hrs/wk of focused aero bar riding w/ an appropriate amount of intensity beats the daylights out of 12+ hrs of mostly Z1-2, coffee-stopping, traffic lighting, rides for the sake of logging hours.

I try to eek out as much value as possible from my riding. This means a bare minimum of time off the aerobars (which is still a lot sometimes), all interval work absolutely must be done aero, and as close to zero Z1 time as I can manage.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.
Quote Reply