let me think about it in my next meeting (a more interesting topic than what's scheduled haha). AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

Very cool Hoagy!

Keep the info coming buddy

If I lived closer I would have been interested in helping you.

Or you could just rock a swimcap over your helmet. If its below 70 degrees out, I bet you can get 5-7 seconds of those 7-10 seconds and save 150 bucks. What do you think Paulo? Try rolling down the hill with a swimcap, for sure.

And then roll this guy down the hill and see how he compares to a P3C.

Suppose I wanted to go at a triathlete pace -- say 40kph. That would take me about 230 watts without the aero helmet. With the aero helmet, it would only take about 215 watts. Alternatively, if I keep my power at 230 watts, I could go roughly 41kph, reducing my 40K time by 90 seconds.

Like I said, you don't need a powermeter to see this kind of difference. Just do a few all-out time-trials with the different helmets and you'll see the difference.


-jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

I know those wheels... and the helmet... Hmmmmm...

PS - Tell Josef that your cleats are too forward.

Looks like the H3 front is on backwards too.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

OMG... you're right!

Add enough aero stuff and eventually you can just coast, huh ;-)

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

Jens,

What's the ballpark of the watts you saved from going from a more ST-approved aero position and the one you have now, which I would call "semi-superman"? Thanks.

Please: "Superboy". See http://groups.google.com/...=en#5bb80e3df2fcd83e

P.S. Courtesy of Carl Sundquist I actually have a pair of those Lamson shoes...never really could get them dialed in, though, and so only raced in them once.

10-15 watts. However, about 5 watts of that was lost back because of the greater effective drop and consequently constrained thigh-torso angle.


-- jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Hmm. That link didn't seem to work for me. Who you callin' superboy? Here's my latest experiment (I've had to resort to using tandem cables, because the regular ones don't reach the rear derailleur anymore):

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

No wonder you put the wheel backwards, you can't even reply to a post ;-)

Steal a mannequin that is close to your size and shape. Duct tape the helmet on the mannequin, then duct tape the mannequin onto the bike in an aero position. Take the bike to the top of a long gentle hill with a decrease of 3% average grade. Point the bike down the hill and let go. When the the mannequin crosses the "finish" line, stop the watch, record. Do this 13 times with the aero helmet and 13 times with standard helmet. Compare results and post here.

It was to a post from 1997 in which I described a position like, e.g., Scott Martin's as the "Superboy". (Not that it matters.)


That was Paulo - me, I'd say that's definitely a manly stem, and hence position. Is it longer than the 22 cm that I used, though? ;-)

BTW, what's your shoe size, Jens?

wow.

that is one very, very long stem.

depending on your body size, how much weight you acutally end up putting on your aero bars, how rough the road are in your area, and what material is used for the steer tube, i would be more than just a bit concerned the forces applied to the fork steerer tube would be very high, possibly near the design limits of the steer tube.

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Where would you want to swim ?

Jens,
That's just wild. Have you ever corresponded with Graham O'bree? :)

Re the whole aero thing, here's some data I gathered this year using ACC.com to estimate aggregate CdA over my training and actual TT's this year. Multiple courses, wind direction/ speed, density etc. etc. I set my position early in the year and did not change it for the races.

#1 Regular setup: P3 in aero position, semi-aero training wheels, Bell Ghisallo helmet, normal slightly floppy jersey/shorts, regular water bottle, saddle bag.

#2 Race setup: P3 in same position, Zipp 808's with same tires & tubes, full aero helmet, skinsuit, regular water bottle.

Avg. Cda #1: 0.275 with a Cv of 6% (n=20)
Avg. Cda #2: 0.235 with a Cv of 8% (n=4)

So with full race gear I save about 15% CdA.

N=1 'dote
Back in 2004 I set my personal PB on the local 21k course on about 380W with my training gear. Conditions were close to ideal. This year I came within 7 sec of that time on only 342W - again on close to ideal conditions. For essentially the same time & conditions, my power was a whopping 10% less.

Yeah, full aero gear really, really works - feels like cheating at times. Now I just have to get back to that 380-390W level for 2007 and a PB should be in the cards :)

What kind of training are you doing to get to that power output?

Hi Gary,
I've been working back from a medical problem that occured right at my all-time best condition in May 2005. FT dropped from ~370 to ~270! by August 2005 (I'm not exaggerating the drop).

Since then I've been using what I learned from folks like Dr. Coggan (training levels, TSS, PMC) to build my base/foundation without much (none for the longest time) high-intensity work. For a long time I couldn't even handle L4 work without the motivation of being in a race (too much localized discomfort).

Anyway, enough of a sob story - for the vast majority of the rebuild I've been doing SST training - and the bulk of that in the tempo range (~.85IF).

Nothing really easy, nothing really hard with a simple focus on getting first CTL and then FTP back to reasonable levels. I was around 340W by spring with CTL around 120 at that time and peaked at 145 over the summer.

This fall I did a 'block' of L4 focus as I could handle it by then and gained another 20W on FTP. CTL dropped due to switching to indoor training (and I think by upping the intensity).

The last 10+W will be quite hard but I'm looking forward to it :)

I haven't yet tried any of the quasi-superman positions so perhaps I could improve my CdA too. IF I were near the tunnel, track or had a good field test site, I'd certainly try it.

I should also note I'm 85kg so in W/kg terms - average at best.

Recalling that you mentioned a 22cm one previously, I had to get a 23. ;-) I suspect that this barely-sublimated acquisition of bigger and better "weapons" is something years of natural selection have hardwired into the human male psychology.

-jens

Point well taken. I certainly wouldn't try this with a carbon steerer. I'm actively looking for a steel or other suitably beefy aero fork.

-jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

When you get that power back, you'll be able to give Scot Martin a run for his money. ;-)

I have a bunch of similar data running the same course, with & without various bits of race gear (helmet, booties, race wheels). I've never formally put it all together as you have, but I would guess it might be a little higher than 15% for me.

-- jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Well then: I bow to your superiority.


Or as my friend likes to put it: if we weren't racing bikes mano a mano, we'd be off in the woods beating on each other with sticks and rocks.

Anyway, re. the shoe size: I was not alluding to yet another measure by which we might size each other up <g>, but wondering if you wanted those Project 96 Lamson aero shoes I mentioned (discussed a bit more in that broken link)? If they'll fit you (I wear a size 43.5 Sidi or Specialized, and these fit me well), I'll give them to you if you promise that you'll share any data you obtain re. their "aeroness".

Jens,
Thanks but I doubt I'll never reach that level. I'd be happy with some power and time PB's here next season.

EDIT: Where is Smartin BTW?