Not sure what you are asking. Supination does NOT equal over pronation.

Pronation is a triplanar motion of the foot: plantarflexion, eversion and abduction (mostly at the subtalar joint) - in space that is. Supination is the "opposite". about 4 degrees (over simplistic) is "normal" pronation that we all need. "Over pronation" refers to too much (i.e. over 4). But as the foot pronates, it either does it "about right" or all the way, sort of a "cog" effect if you will.

A supinated foot (the way the shoe companies describe) is a typical high arched, rigid foot. These people are usually put in neutral, cushioned shoes (i.e. ASICS gel cumulus, nimbus, etc.)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

"Supination does NOT equal over pronation."

I have this idea for a new super hero - he's called The Clarifier. He would follow your fine example.

"a new super hero - he's called The Clarifier"

Actually, "The Podiatrist" is probably more accurate. :-) That would explain why he clarifies the situation.

Oops, thanks for the correction. I was thinking one thing and typing another.

It is supination, in my case.

So are the Asics that you suggest my best bet? I have been in several Brooks models designed for "high arches." They helped tremendously from the onset of the hip/knee problems, but I really want to kick this completely!

The pain and tightness mimics ITB to a certain extent. In fact, that was probably the original injury. After several years of it coming and going, I don't think it's quite the same, but I still imagine that my footstrike is contributing to what I feel now.

Since you are so knowledgable, let me give you a summary... I am a long distance runner who developed ITB by returning to workouts too quickly after a ultra-adventure race several years ago. I could not run 20 minutes without full-blown pain outside the knee and radiating up to the hip. After much rest, P.T., stretching, strengthening, changing shoes, etc., I have returned to "more-or-less" normal running, although I still can develop similar knee pain later in long runs, though not nearly as bad.

When I become REALLY fatigued, I can almost feel my left foot begin to roll out.

I am in an extended period of rest right now after several long races at the end of the summer, and just looking for ways to return healthy next year. The knee hurt in the second adventure race this summer during the long running portions (again, similar to ITB) but once it reached a certain level of pretty bad pain, it did not get worse and did not cause me to alter my stride (as the ITBS had done when I was ignorantly trying to "run through it").

Thanks -- Ray

I gotta question for you Rod...does the shape of your foot and arch have the most effect on pronation or supination, or are there other biomechanics that come into play? I ask because I think I have a lowish arch, yet the last time I went to a good running store, the folks there that watched me run put me into a neutral, cushioned shoe. Can having bow legs (which I do) offset what your foot looks like, or the mechanics of your running? Just curious...

Thanks...Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Precisely. Your running store did the right thing. Most people (especially shoe stores) erroneously look at the "shape" of your foot and assume a hypermobile/pronated foot or supinated foot and that is not always the case. My foot is actually quite flat (flat enough that I had argue with the Army for certain select "schools" (like Air Assault and Airborne) when I was 19 years old. I won my "arguement" only because I ran so well (they have since changed their "flat foot" stance if it is a correctable flatfoot with orthotics, etc.).

I am not a fan of heavy, motion control shoes the industry has. I do recommend many for people in my practice (i.e. they are seeing me since they are a couch potato starting out and 275 lbs.). But for people on this board (VERY select population that we don't even realize), a neutral or lightweight trainer (or even racing flat) would be just fine.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

ITB syndrome can be a bear to lick completely. Sometimes foot mechanics has some to do with it, but general overal flexibility and lower extremity muscular strength has a lot more to do with this. Since you seem pretty experienced (in both running and PT for this) and keep eluding that your "shoes" or foot mechanics may be a contributing factor, let's look at that.

First, adventure racing is particularly difficult for people with a hight arched, rigid foot. The main reason our foot pronates at heel strike (notice I said heel strike and not midfoot landing as this can't occur much if you midfoot land - effecient on a track/road, but not on trails) is to adapt to uneven terrain at the subtalar joint. You then resupinate throughout midstance and the forefoot is then fully "locked" just before toe off for the next step. This all happens pretty fast, thousands of times per run. Most of us notice that trail running feels great on the knees/hips/back, but makes our ankle "tired". In your case, you don't have much "adaption" at impact (i.e. little pronatory motion via the subtalar joint which is like a torque convertor) and you will make that up at the knee with some rotation forces. The knee does not like rotation forces (only pure sagittal plane motion like flexion). This could be part of your problem.

If you don't frequently sprain your ankles (a problem in some rigid feet types), I would try running in a very minimalist shoe for a while (carefully) and see what happens. This will allow your foot as much motion as possible (for you, not much) and hopefully take some off your lateral knee/ITB. On trails/grass/CC this should be fine. The drawback to this is the increased risk of calf strain, achilles tendonitis (at first) and a possible stress fx to the metatarsals and or tibia. These would be more of an issue though on the roads and at faster speeds than one usually does with ultra trail running.

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD