I was just testing him to see if he was really Lieutenant Dan in Mr. Halvard's clothing. Apparently, he's not. So I'll quit yakking with him. ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Do police chiefs and unions feel that way, in general? Across the US? If so, I’m happy to concede the point. I’ll let you tell me what guns and ammo should be illegal.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I dislike enforced groupthink. And whether or not I think he's smart to do what he did on his property is beside the point. The point is, he still has a right to do it. If folks in his town or jurisdiction don't like what he's doing they need to band together and make it legally impossible for him to do so. Also, I wanted to see if the Norweganian, or Norwegian or whatever he is, would respond. But I've since been advised to quit feeding the troll, so no more posts from he when it comes to him. ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

People who use the mental health issue are simply distracting from the real problem of guns, it’s a cop out.

A large portion of the country have a mental health problem (depending on how it’s defined), or have anger issues, or don’t cope well when things go wrong, or want revenge from a real or perceived injustice, etc. Are you going to treat them all, lock them up?

Obama passed legislation blocking 75,000 Americans on social assistance with from getting guns and Trump overturned it, fully supported by Republicans and the NRA.

The mental health issue is a red herring, another excuse to not try anything seriously.

At one point, a lot of folks on the left tried to label such ammunition "Cop killer bullets" on the theory it would make people develop a distaste for their use. Didn't work.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

That's not how hollow point bullets work.

I'm far from expert on ballistics, but hollow points open up (like a mushroom) and create a bigger wound channel rather than tumbling. They are used in hunting, in fact. Hunters want to kill quickly and not risk losing or damaging the animal so the greater wound channel is very necessary in a hunting bullet.

FMJ or solid bullets penetrate further/better because they don't open up and dissipate energy into what they hit. They just poke holes.

Where it gets tricky is that hollow points also won't go through walls and other structures and keep on traveling. They will open up and leave their energy in the structure they hit, whether human tissue, drywall, or car window... The "safer" FMJ is much more likely to go right through the first thing it hits and keep going to find a likely unintended target.

So, I carry hollow points in my CCW and feel that it would be highly irresponsible not to, because it would be much less safe.

And the rounds used in Olympic biathlon will likely tumble and bounce a lot once they enter a human. They're very small/light weight projectiles so rather than smashing through tissue and bone, they bounce around and unfortunately, tear through a lot of blood vessels.

Except, as pointed out in the article, it's nigh on impossible for them to do so due to Florida's pre-emption laws.

No Dan

You're the one on a confiscatory bent

so far you've hit most of the click bait flash points: ARs; automatic weapons; hollow points; crazy weapon/ammo stockpilers, etc. You're on a roll

PS I have six shovels (two hot shots for post holes; a square tip; and a round tip--and some of those in straight handle or short with a hand grip) Right tool for the right job amigo

---

Steve

First, don't associate me with that guy in the White House, which is a point I've made clear since my return to these hallowed halls.

Second, I disagree on the mental health question. I believe it, and the cultural rot that threatens to reduce our foundation to nothing, has a lot to do with this seeming rise in school shootings.

Third: Fine, so what "serious" gun reform/ gun control measures would work, short of a complete and total confiscation of firearms?

Keep in mind the political question and the fact that the Democrats, at any point from 2009 to 2011, could have instituted a raft of gun reform measures, but failed to do so. Why is that, do you think?

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Deaths by an AR are an opportunity to be exploited.

The fact that almost all violent crime related firearm deaths are associated with handguns and thugs, is in contrast, not an opportunity to be exploited. It's a 3rd rail. It's an issue that encourages one to ask, why do we have so many thugs? And we don't want to look at that rigorously because it's uncomfortable.

We've even developed a whole language to avoid blaming the thugs. We talk about the "underprivileged", as if "lack of privilage" was the primary reason for low income, and low income as if that was a reasonable cause for violent crime.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Well, it seems to me the answer then lies at the state level of politics down in Florida. If enough people of like mind can organize themselves, they can change those laws, after all. That's the way our system works, as all of us in this thread know. Absent that, maybe public disapproval of his actions -- but not some sort of vigilantism as regards him -- may have an effect. Until then, it's most likely that "live and let live" should predominate in his case.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Would "content" be a better word than "happy"? You may not be happy with the status quo on this issue, but if you aren't willing to address it in a serious manner, you would be content with it.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Some might argue that a "live and let live, he's not doing anything illegal" mindset might be what allowed the shooter at the core of this whole discussion to do what he did this week, no?

So which person are your suggesting should be banned here. I don't see either of these posts as offensive.

that folks on both sides of the gun control issue are here on this little microcosm discussion is proof that no one is 'content' with kids getting killed. Excepting Halvard of course--she seems happy with it as long as they are USA kids

---

Steve

Dan, serious question. Do you have any gun experience? Many of the things you say about guns and ammo decry ignorance about both guns and ammunition. The ammo used in the olympics (.22) is not designed to inflict mass damage, true, but it is responsible for more deaths than any other caliber.

Some of your arguments and comments about guns and ammo would not be dissimilar to me trying to argue with you about bicycles and their many facets. With your type-a personality, I think if you ever had the chance to learn marksmanship and the ins n outs of reloading, long range shooting, and the skill it takes to hunt certain animals...you would love it. Much like the skills for proper bike fitting/set up/build it is a skill that takes much time and effort and is very fun/challenging/intriguing.

Before retiring two months ago, I was a law enforcement officer in SoCal. If you asked me, based on all the terrible things I saw over those 27 years what I would address first, guns or alcohol, I'd reply "alcohol" without even thinking about it. Did I see lots of carnage from guns? yes, mostly in the form of suicides though although I saw quite a few gun homicides. But.......the carnage from alcohol though....oh my gosh...in the form of innocent lives killed by drunk drivers to families and lives left decimated by it. Just my opinion and my experiences....no stats....alcohol was exponentially worse.

Do I think we could pass some better laws? Yes. If you can't drink till you're 21 then how about not being able to purchase a gun until you are 21? There's one for starters (although that one needs to leave some room for obviously being able to shoot/hunt under supervision etc). But at the same time,,,,easy access to alcohol, drugs, lack of parenting and many other things have been much more devastating to our kids than guns.....but I'm not downplaying these shootings either so please don't twist my words. I'm just purely speaking from experience. I think you are a great guy, but I also think you are speaking from a very inexperienced position about something you know little about. :-)

Fixed your post, I guess you forgot to mention those other groups opposed to this

I'm with you all the way about the devastation wrought by alcohol, sir. It's an observation I tangentially alluded to over in the "Bahhhh, medical science" thread about pot. I remarked that I scratch my head over our acceptance and legalization of alcohol and tobacco, both of which are proven killers (tobacco usually over a much longer timeline, admittedly), versus how a majority may conceive of marijuana (and I'm not advocate for dope, either, believe me).

Alcohol and alcoholism creates practically a society-wrecking phenomenon. Violence, domestic (and child) violence, billions annually lost in productivity, shortened lifespans, huge medical costs... you name it. Far, far more than all the gun violence in US history combined, I'd hazard a guess.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

He was advising me not to feed or otherwise poke at the trolls, which is what I was doing with my post. Florida Man was bound to come up in this thread, right? So I turned it back on him. Probably shouldn't have done that, though. LOL!

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

see post #224. Let me know what you think

well then perhaps we need to pass an Amendment banning demon rum? That should solve the problem

lets get to work

---

Steve

Police Chiefs, Sheriffs,and unions don't really feel any way about certain kinds of bullets. Why do you think that is Dan?

So how has this gentleman -- and I know next to nothing about this case -- hazarded or otherwise put in harm's way any of his neighbors, as yet? It seems to me the school shooter practically promised to commit mayhem on various social media sites, including YouTube. That seems of a different character than what this attention seeker (no doubt) is doing? Or is the idea of a gun range in a neighborhood disqualifying in and of itself? And that there's no way for this site to be safe by definition?

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I view handguns as primarily a tool for folks to defend themselves with. As such, I want rounds as lethal as possible.

Speaking generally not at you two.......Want to stop violent crimes with weapons? Chase after measures that target the violent criminals. Each time I read about an idea that targets the law abiding instead of the criminal, I see what little appreciation the idea's proponent has for freedom.

Everyone wants less gun violence. The difference is that one group wants to stop criminals by controlling the law abiding.

Leave the law-abiding alone. Go have more children. Tell them what to do. Control their lives. Get it out of your system.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

I didn't say anything about banning anything (even though alcohol was banned from my beloved Navy's ships long, long ago ;-). I'm libertarian in that regard. It appears to me, though, as if we suffer from the same kinds of cultural failings when it comes to alcohol that we do, in some ways, when it comes to guns.

I mean, the British navy and various European nations have a vigorous and long-lived relationship with alcohol, yet I don't see the same sorts of issues with responsible use of it in those places as I do here in the US.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."