Lavender Room

Feb 14, 18 18:21

Post #51 of 558 (3540 views)

DavHamm wrote:

JSA wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

JSA wrote:

Slowman wrote:

How about we outlaw guns like the one used? For starters?

Because "assault rifles" account for fewer murders than knives, fists, and feet combined?

https://www.statista.com/...e-us-by-weapon-used/

Twisted Stat... they account for far more mass killings then knives, fists or feet.

See, here is the problem with this debate. Every fucking time we have this debate, we have a display of ignorance on the subject that makes having an intelligent discussion impossible.

People who know nothing about how guns work want to opine on what should and should not be outlawed.

People who do not know the facts about what type of firearms are used most often, even in mass shootings, want to opine on what types of firearms should be banned.

We bitch when health insurance companies opine on patient care over the opinion of the doctors treating the patient. But, then we accept that same level of ignorance on this topic.

Your not willing to give an inch. You can not deny removing XXX type gun would reduce / eliminate some weapons used in mass shootings. As you demonstrated in the other posts, when it comes to stat's around guns you can find stat's to make any point you want... Not worth discussing further..

Nothing is going to be done, the gun side won't give in on anything, and the anti gun folks wont give on allowing guns in gun free zones. Both refuse to move from their position. Both would rather have more of these then give up their position. AKA

Just another day in America. American's have accepted this as normal.

We have evidence that does not work. I posted in a prior thread the statistic from Australia. When Australia effectively banned guns, their mass murder rate remained statistically the same.

There was no statistical decrease in mass murders.

In the US, you are talking about affecting a Constitutional Right, unlike in Australia. If you want to do that, you better show it will have some impact. But, you cannot.

So, you can make these bold assertions, but they are ignorant and unsupported by any evidence.

Let me ask you this: Why do you want to ban some types of firearms when we are not enforcing the current laws? Answer that question, please.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:22

Post #52 of 558 (3539 views)

DavHamm wrote:

JSA wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

Or, just carry on and shrug our shoulders as these events just kind of happen every couple months.

Yup, this is now the American way... Every time one of these happens I comment this is just the American way now.

Oddly I don't get much reaction from either side on it. Because both of them are unwilling to compromise and actually do anything.

I think they passed the no bumpstop law, but even that little thing, I am not sure has been enacted. Sad, but true. America doesn't care, just another day.

Or we could demand law enforcement officials like Democrat Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn enforce the law.

GRAHAM: When almost 80,000 people fail a background check and 44 people are prosecuted, what kind of deterrent is that? I mean, the law obviously is not seeing that as important…. We absolutely do nothing to enforce the laws on the books…

FLYNN: Just for the record, from my point of view, the point of a background check…

GRAHAM: How many cases have you made? How many cases have you made?

FLYNN: It doesn’t matter, it’s a paper thing. I want to stop 76,000 people from getting guns illegally. That’s what a background check does. If you think we’re going to do paperwork prosecutions, you’re wrong. […] We don’t make those cases. We have priorities. We make gun cases. We make 2,000 gun cases a year, senator, that’s our priority. We’re not in a paper chase. We’re trying to prevent the wrong people from buying guns. That’s why we do background checks. If you think I’m going to do a paper chase, then you think I’m going to misuse my resources.

Just keep making my point..

Just another day in America.

Just keep displaying your ignorance.

Seriously, you just look foolish.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Dirt fighter

Feb 14, 18 18:26

Post #53 of 558 (3532 views)

Sad, In this situation it looks like simple see something say something may have prevented this.
Seems like everyone that new this kid expected this to happen.

Re: Florida School Shooting [fulla] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Moonrocket

Feb 14, 18 18:27

Post #54 of 558 (3531 views)

fulla wrote:

Whilst americans continue to display the negative attitudes towards gun control shown in this thread, school shootings will continue to be part of their culture.

CDC stepped in and looked at Suicides in Palo Alto even though the County’s rates were below the national rate. So, perhaps if this hits a wealthy, well connected enough community there will be some action. (I can’t believe I actually wrote that - but wonder if anyone disagrees...)

Re: Florida School Shooting [JSA] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:32

Post #55 of 558 (3516 views)

Just about every student interviewed today, post-shooting, that knew Nikolas Cruz said that they all also knew he was the most likely to commit a mass shooting at the school. Privacy laws possibly shielded Cruz from follow-up by law enforcement, and most schools, even in Florida, are famously gun-free zones.

It doesn't appear as if a single person at the school was either armed or able to fight back, although this doesn't mean that they wouldn't have if there'd been time. My shooting instructor, who also teaches various police departments, running their officers through shooting houses and such, has said before that in these types of shootings, the vast majority of victims are shot within the first 5 minutes.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Re: Florida School Shooting [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:33

Post #56 of 558 (3511 views)

Moonrocket wrote:

fulla wrote:

Whilst americans continue to display the negative attitudes towards gun control shown in this thread, school shootings will continue to be part of their culture.

The median income in Sandy Hook is $106k vs. $126k in Palo Alto vs. $59k median income in the US. Is Sandy Hook considered wealthy enough?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [JSA] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

BCtriguy1

Feb 14, 18 18:36

Post #57 of 558 (3505 views)

JSA wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

I completely agree re: ownership and responsibility.

But your right to practice that responsibility also allows countless others who are irresponsible, reckless, and unstable access to guns.

Then address that issue. Don't make asinine comments about people who exercise the responsibility that comes with gun ownership.

My comments were directed at strong 2A advocates, not specifically the portion (minority?) of whom are hyper-responsible in their practices.

You brought guilt in to the discussion. I asked that those who take advantage of their right and are quick to defend it simply think about the aftermath of this shooting. Dont take their right for granted, realize it comes at a cost. Maybe consider your safety practices, maybe think about your buddy's loner unstable son who has access to firearms and say something about it, I don't know. Maybe such reflection brings up emotions of guilt or shame for you, I don't know.

What I can't stand is the collective shrugging of shoulders and just waiting around for the next one to happen.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: Florida School Shooting [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Rick_pcfl

Feb 14, 18 18:38

Post #58 of 558 (3504 views)

DavHamm wrote:

Your not willing to give an inch. You can not deny removing XXX type gun would reduce / eliminate some weapons used in mass shootings. As you demonstrated in the other posts, when it comes to stat's around guns you can find stat's to make any point you want... Not worth discussing further..

Nothing is going to be done, the gun side won't give in on anything, and the anti gun folks wont give on allowing guns in gun free zones. Both refuse to move from their position. Both would rather have more of these then give up their position. AKA

Just another day in America. American's have accepted this as normal.

So, some crazed person who is intent on killing people would say "Well, I can't get an AR-15 due to gun laws. So, I guess I won't try to kill anyone now"?

If we removed the AR platform, killers would find another gun to use that was probably just as effective. Then, in a few years people would say "Look, there aren't as many people killed with AR-15's since we outlawed them, so now they're using shotguns. Let's outlaw shotguns and that will finally solve the problem".

I appreciate that everyone is sickened by these acts - we all are.

Re: Florida School Shooting [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:39

Post #59 of 558 (3503 views)

Dirt fighter wrote:

Sad, In this situation it looks like simple see something say something may have prevented this.
Seems like everyone that new this kid expected this to happen.

Ticking time bomb, it looks like. It's easier to say we all would have done something about him than it is to actually do it, though, because most people -- even today -- are more focused on minding their own business and, again; it's not really certain if anyone really could have done anything about him beforehand, absent any credible and serious threats made by him.

I'd be curious to know how and when he obtained his weapon (right now, they think a single AR-15 with multiple mags) and what sort of indications of prior planning he demonstrated, because it's almost a certainty he gave clear indications of his intent to other people, either in the real world or online.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Re: Florida School Shooting [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:44

Post #60 of 558 (3492 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

JSA wrote:

BCtriguy1 wrote:

I completely agree re: ownership and responsibility.

But your right to practice that responsibility also allows countless others who are irresponsible, reckless, and unstable access to guns.

Then address that issue. Don't make asinine comments about people who exercise the responsibility that comes with gun ownership.

My comments were directed at strong 2A advocates, not specifically the portion (minority?) of whom are hyper-responsible in their practices.

I would say of the hyper-responsible gun owners, 99.9% are strong 2A advocates. There are over 300M guns in the US. If the majority were not responsible, the population of the US would be dramatically decreased.

BCtriguy1 wrote:

You brought guilt in to the discussion. I asked that those who take advantage of their right and are quick to defend it simply think about the aftermath of this shooting. Dont take their right for granted, realize it comes at a cost. Maybe consider your safety practices, maybe think about your buddy's loner unstable son who has access to firearms and say something about it, I don't know. Maybe such reflection brings up emotions of guilt or shame for you, I don't know.

You think I brought guilt into the discussion? Really? Here is what you said:

But, I do hope strong 2A advocates at least think of those 17 coffins in the ground next time they go target shooting, as the reality is their freedom is paid for in the blood of a lot of innocent people.

Your position was that, every time I go to the range, I should think about the fact that my ability to go to the range was paid for in the blood of a lot of innocent people. But, you think I brought guilt into the discussion?

Holy shit.

BCtriguy1 wrote:

What I can't stand is the collective shrugging of shoulders and just waiting around for the next one to happen.

Who here is displaying that attitude?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:45

Post #61 of 558 (3490 views)

rick_pcfl wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

Right now, I have the plans -- in PDF form -- for a 9mm handgun made completely from over-the-counter parts, and I've had them for a couple years. You can practically 3D print every part of an AR-15 but the lower, I think.

There's also NO WAY we're going to peel hundreds of millions of legally owned rifles and handguns from the hands of Americans, that much is for certain. In my opinion, we're better off spending our time figuring out how to plan for and protect against, as well as preempt, such mass shooters going forward.

Unfortunately, it's the age we live in and maybe it's time to treat the active shooter scenario and planning for it as something akin to how we used to train schoolkids on how to seek shelter in case of a nuclear attack.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Re: Florida School Shooting [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 18:49

Post #62 of 558 (3482 views)

big kahuna wrote:

The lower is one of the easiest parts to 3D print. The part you cannot 3D print is the barrel (and a few other parts).

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

JD21

Feb 14, 18 19:04

Post #63 of 558 (3465 views)

My observation is the anti-2A (anti gun) crowd believe these occurrences don’t affect responsible gun owners as deeply. My further observation is these occurrences affect the responsible more deeply than the others.

When we deal with cars killing people we focus on the people who were responsible. WRT mass shootings we tend to focus on the guns. Why? As JSA said it’s mainly ignorance about guns and responsible ownership.

I grew up hunting, lots of guns in the home, solid safety training; one sister became a decorated marksman(person). Virtually every home in the town had guns and I can’t recall one single murder by gun in this small town.

As I previously stated, my only practical input is to focus on the mentally-Ill and ‘at risk’ individuals and their access. As evidenced in Australia, this may not reduce mass killings but it’s likely to reduce mass shootings IMHO.

Last edited by: JD21: Feb 14, 18 19:06

Re: Florida School Shooting [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 19:05

Post #64 of 558 (3465 views)

DavHamm wrote:

Koala Bear wrote:

Didn’t see anything about this, I just turned on the tv and saw this.

No real facts yet that I’ve seen, still unfolding as I write this.

https://www.google.com/...-shooting/index.html

Just another day in America Schools.

What a shithole country!

Re: Florida School Shooting [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

DavHamm

Feb 14, 18 19:12

Post #65 of 558 (3444 views)

Funny thing in at least a small way, maybe one side is willing to compromise.

Just did some math and posted to one of our city council persons page, that for about a 1/4 of mil we could put an armed police officer in each school in our city. And much to my surprise its quickly picking up traction, with most of their constitutions who are all VERY strong dem's.

So who knows maybe the citizens of the city I live in do care. Will keep you informed if anything really develops.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Florida School Shooting [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

DavHamm

Feb 14, 18 19:22

Post #66 of 558 (3428 views)

big kahuna wrote:

rick_pcfl wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

BK, I wasn't actually proposing a solution, but making a point, that neither side will compromise. So if a bill to pay for 10 Armed guards were placed in each school and we banned, the BD3234s gun were to try to be passed, it would get no support cause the Liberals don't want armed schools and the conservatives dont want their gun touched. Stat's figure ect.. don't matter. If stopping these types of events were really important we would have gotten it done in the 19yrs since Columbine. I'll keep saying it WE DONT CARE. JSA can rattle off all his gun stat's they don't matter, neither side thinks this is enough of an issue to move an inch. Pretty sure we still don't have a law banning Bump stops. We can't even get that done. JUST ANOTHER DAY IN AMERICA.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Florida School Shooting [RZ] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

The Guardian

Feb 14, 18 19:22

Post #67 of 558 (3427 views)

As a non-American, and not a gun guy, these sorts of things used to blow my mind, and I used to believe America would find a way to reduce their gun deaths. As I hit my forties, I now realise, this is just America.

No one cares enough to fix it. I don't even care anymore. Sad to say, I read "17 dead in a school shooting" with the same fatalism as I might read "car crash on the 405". I know America will never change, and this is the price of "freedom".

Carry on killing each other, or at the very least arguing across each other about how this can't ever change (while ignoring the fact that America is pretty much the only nation on the planet to accept mass shootings on basically a monthly basis).

Re: Florida School Shooting [JSA] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

MattyK

Feb 14, 18 19:26

Post #68 of 558 (3422 views)

JSA wrote:

Would love to see those statistics of which you speak... We haven't had a mass shooting here since 1996 (notwithstanding 3 dead in the 2014 Sydney seige), and only a handful of arson attacks that have claimed more than a few lives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

I love how Americans stand behind their "Constitutional Right" as if it's immutable. It's called an "amendment" ....

<Insert Jim Jeffries standup bit>

Re: Florida School Shooting [MattyK] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 19:31

Post #69 of 558 (3410 views)

MattyK wrote:

JSA wrote:

Given the way AMENDMENTS to our Constitution come into existence -- and NONE of the first 10 amendments which make up the Bill of Rights has ever come close to being eliminated -- the Second Amendment, as well as the First, Fourth and Fifth, might as well be immutable. And that's for reasons that most non-Americans don't understand nor readily accept.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Re: Florida School Shooting [MattyK] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 19:33

Post #70 of 558 (3405 views)

MattyK wrote:

JSA wrote:

<SIGH>

Do the math.

In the 20 years since the Port Arthur massacre, you have had 76 deaths from mass killings. In the 20 years prior to Port Arthur, you had 77 death from mass killing.

Yep, you solved the problem of mass killings ...

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 19:36

Post #71 of 558 (3399 views)

DavHamm wrote:

The fact that you are too ignorant to see that the stats matter show that you are the biggest part of the problem.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [MattyK] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 19:39

Post #72 of 558 (3395 views)

MattyK wrote:

I love how Americans stand behind their "Constitutional Right" as if it's immutable. It's called an "amendment" ....

<Insert Jim Jeffries standup bit>

You are right. They are "only amendments." Just like the "right" of women to vote. The "right" to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. The "right" to be free from cruel and unusual punishment. The "right" to be free from slavery. Just amendments. Not immutable.

Wow ...

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: Florida School Shooting [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Feb 14, 18 19:40

Post #73 of 558 (3392 views)

So-called "Constitutional rights" are nothing more than the natural rights each of us are due as a result of our humanity. They can't be taken away -- absent extremely good reason -- nor can an American citizen give them away.

Those rights aren't GIVEN to us by the Constitution. All that document does is acknowledge their existence and then REQUIRE our government to safeguard them on our behalf.

Obviously, a mechanism exists for amending the Constitution but the amendment process is very difficult for good reason. For one, it insulates the document from the momentary passions of the people, such as you get whenever there's a mass shooting like this.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Re: Florida School Shooting [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

The Guardian

Feb 14, 18 20:13

Post #74 of 558 (3354 views)

big kahuna wrote:

Consider that different countries have different constitutions that interpret one's natural "rights" differently. Unless you believe USA is the only country that got natural rights exactly right, you must be able to see that there is no such thing as a "natural right". I am not arguing this from a gun control point of view, I am just pointing out that it isn't a given that there is a set of rights that we all have upon birth.

Many would argue whatever "rights" we have are simply bargained as part of a social contract.

Re: Florida School Shooting [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Quote | Reply

Rick_pcfl

Feb 14, 18 20:21

Post #75 of 558 (3347 views)

Enough with the "gun owners don't care enough to fix it". That's bullshit. The issue is that we do not believe your solution would work. Plain and simple. I'm pretty sure that most of us, especially those of us with children, would jump on to any solution that would actually work. We just do not believe that banning XYZ gun type will make any noticeable difference.

Do you honestly believe that a crazed person with the intention to kill will give up if he can't get an AR-15? I don't. Neither do many other gun owners. To us, banning AR type guns would be no more effective in stopping mass shootings as would banning Vodka. So, why should we give up our rights to follow a plan that will not work.