Wait until the analysis is somewhat completed....if they can do with missing caps (I think). It will be another lie presented by trump and repubs.
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Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [summitt]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
I still believe your tax example impacts a small percentage of people who have shoe horned into a house too big for their income. First, the 4% is not an interest only loan and a portion is principle, lowering your example.
Second, I see lots of CA returns and nobody I know is paying 2% of their home value in property taxes.
A 20% drop in home prices impacts everyone who is planning on selling their home at some point, and it certainly would have an impact on the economy.
First: No, I already accounted for that. The example (1M mortgage of 4% on 30-year, house worth 1.25M, houshold in 33% tax bracket....) has an interest payment of ~3.3K/mo. Principal payments raise it to ~4.8K/mo. I am only counting deductibility of interest and property taxes.
Second: Of course not, Thanks Prop. 13! Do you know anyone who lives in Illinois or Texas or New Jersey or Wisconsin? Lots of states have taxes ~2%, and most places have wealthy enclaves with all sorts of folks shoe-horned in there. That's okay, some of them will make it up with tax rate cuts (most of them won't) Here:
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [blueraider_mike]
[ In reply to ]
Lets figure the right tax rate by income group and be done with it.
They are trying to rush some tax changes through up here too. They started a consulting period in the middle of the summer and they kept talking about "fairness" but really meant to say "let's create more tax revenue for the government and stick it to small businesses".
I also can't stand how income tax has grown. In 1917, our Income Tax Act was introduced as a temporary measure to raise tax for the war and the entire document was 4 pages. Today, it is the Act alone is 2,000+ pages (very fine print on large paper) plus an infinite array of Tax Interpretation Bulletins. I get daily tax updates including court cases, new tax proposals etc.
And in that 100 year period, every single government promised to simplify tax, make it less complicated so the average person could understand it and to make it fair to everyone. With every budget or attempt at reform, it becomes more complex and has different ways to reward special interest groups.
I just read that part of Trump's plan is to allow churches to get involved in politics and still maintain their charitable status. They are replacing a law implemented during the Johnson administration. That's a perfect example of how what first appears to be simple will end up having more rules and regulations with some groups benefiting and others not.
They are trying to rush some tax changes through up here too. They started a consulting period in the middle of the summer and they kept talking about "fairness" but really meant to say "let's create more tax revenue for the government and stick it to small businesses".
I also can't stand how income tax has grown. In 1917, our Income Tax Act was introduced as a temporary measure to raise tax for the war and the entire document was 4 pages. Today, it is the Act alone is 2,000+ pages (very fine print on large paper) plus an infinite array of Tax Interpretation Bulletins. I get daily tax updates including court cases, new tax proposals etc.
And in that 100 year period, every single government promised to simplify tax, make it less complicated so the average person could understand it and to make it fair to everyone. With every budget or attempt at reform, it becomes more complex and has different ways to reward special interest groups.
I just read that part of Trump's plan is to allow churches to get involved in politics and still maintain their charitable status. They are replacing a law implemented during the Johnson administration. That's a perfect example of how what first appears to be simple will end up having more rules and regulations with some groups benefiting and others not.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [summitt]
[ In reply to ]
summitt wrote:
Not sure how many are paying 4% for a 30 year mortgage? Haven't shopped mortgages in a long time.
n=1. I closed on a 30 yr fixed at 3.25% a month ago. Original approval at 3.5%, but we paid for half a point.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [oldandslow]
[ In reply to ]
I would be curious to see what this would look like when all forms of state tax are added up, at least those that are easy to calculate (as opposed to fees like DMV registration, license costs, etc.). In Michigan we have a 6% sales tax (groceries, classified medical goods, and personal services excluded...although it's rumored that this may grow to 7%), the eighth highest property taxes as a percentage of income, and an income tax of 4.25%, not including certain municipalities that charge city taxes. Texas is #6 for property taxes as a percentage of income, for example, but I would have a hard time believing that their overall effective tax is lower than Michigan's. It's a good thing that overall cost of living is reasonable in my area, because it otherwise feels like the taxes are a killer...which is another good justification for purchasing a lot of non-taxed items from online retailers who don't have a Michigan presence.
I still believe your tax example impacts a small percentage of people who have shoe horned into a house too big for their income.
First, the 4% is not an interest only loan and a portion is principle, lowering your example.
Second, I see lots of CA returns and nobody I know is paying 2% of their home value in property taxes.
A 20% drop in home prices impacts everyone who is planning on selling their home at some point, and it certainly would have an impact on the economy.
First: No, I already accounted for that. The example (1M mortgage of 4% on 30-year, house worth 1.25M, houshold in 33% tax bracket....) has an interest payment of ~3.3K/mo. Principal payments raise it to ~4.8K/mo. I am only counting deductibility of interest and property taxes.
Second: Of course not, Thanks Prop. 13! Do you know anyone who lives in Illinois or Texas or New Jersey or Wisconsin? Lots of states have taxes ~2%, and most places have wealthy enclaves with all sorts of folks shoe-horned in there. That's okay, some of them will make it up with tax rate cuts (most of them won't) Here:
oldandslow wrote:
Quote:
I still believe your tax example impacts a small percentage of people who have shoe horned into a house too big for their income.
First, the 4% is not an interest only loan and a portion is principle, lowering your example.
Second, I see lots of CA returns and nobody I know is paying 2% of their home value in property taxes.
A 20% drop in home prices impacts everyone who is planning on selling their home at some point, and it certainly would have an impact on the economy.
First: No, I already accounted for that. The example (1M mortgage of 4% on 30-year, house worth 1.25M, houshold in 33% tax bracket....) has an interest payment of ~3.3K/mo. Principal payments raise it to ~4.8K/mo. I am only counting deductibility of interest and property taxes.
Second: Of course not, Thanks Prop. 13! Do you know anyone who lives in Illinois or Texas or New Jersey or Wisconsin? Lots of states have taxes ~2%, and most places have wealthy enclaves with all sorts of folks shoe-horned in there. That's okay, some of them will make it up with tax rate cuts (most of them won't) Here:
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [tyrod1]
[ In reply to ]
Wait until the analysis is somewhat completed....if they can do with missing caps (I think). It will be another lie presented by trump and repubs.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
big kahuna wrote:
blueraider_mike wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
Trumps plan is 1000 times better then the monstrosity of a tax code we have today I'm a tax accountant in Canada and our Income Tax Act is worse than the U.S Tax Code but if you think Trump's cursory plan is going to make it smaller and less complex, you haven't been paying attention for the last 100 years or so. Every election in every country in the world has the same BS with politicians cryiing for simplicity, a return to common sense, less regulations and a system that is fair for everyone.
And in every country on earth, the tax systems get more complex, harder to understand and weigh far more in favor of the wealthy. It's just the way things go. Trumps beautiful tax plan that is being rushed through so they can get at least something passed, isn't going to be any different.
I am talking about the principle's of the plan, but your right, after everyone whines (States with enormous state income taxes and high property taxes and then the Real estate lobbyists who want their business subsidized, etc, etc) then they keep a little here and a little there and before you know it, its not so simple anymore.
But as the outline of the plan was shared and even with changes, its better than our current tax structure.
Lets figure the right tax rate by income group and be done with it.
Fair Tax, baby. :-)
Replaces all existing income taxes as well as payroll taxes with a single consumption tax. Pay a 30% tax on purchases of all new goods and services, excluding certain necessities, due to a "prebate." That's like a refund and it's offered at the beginning of each month so that certain purchases are essentially tax free.
1. Eliminates taxes on payroll and income.
2. Taxpayers get to keep their entire paycheck.
3. Taxpayers are taxed on consumption of goods and services.
4. ALL taxpayers are subject to the tax.
5. Retailers would collect and remit taxes to the Treasury.
6. IRS is eliminated.
I can live with that. LOL!
What about business owners? Do they pay tax on unsold items? What about resale to other businesses? What is a consumer item vs wholesale? Used goods? I could see a huge black market for stuff.
At least the Mexicans will love it. A wall won't even be needed anymore. You'll probably see lots of people emigrating to Mexico.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [MidwestRoadie]
[ In reply to ]
I would say the two obvious changes to the bill should be to eliminate the “marriage penalty” for the 35% bracket (why only that bracket?) and change the $10,000 property tax deduction to $10,000 state tax deduction (why single out one form of taxation over any other?).
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
Some Republicans in blue states immediately expressed their opposition to the bill.
“I cannot support the current version of the tax bill because it will increase taxes for many of my constituents to subsidize tax cuts for the rest of the country,” Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) said. “My job is to protect the taxpayers of Long Island and New York.”
amen amen amen
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
“I cannot support the current version of the tax bill because it will increase taxes for many of my constituents to subsidize tax cuts for the rest of the country,” Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) said. “My job is to protect the taxpayers of Long Island and New York.”
amen amen amen
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [FishyJoe]
[ In reply to ]
FishyJoe wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
blueraider_mike wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
Trumps plan is 1000 times better then the monstrosity of a tax code we have today I'm a tax accountant in Canada and our Income Tax Act is worse than the U.S Tax Code but if you think Trump's cursory plan is going to make it smaller and less complex, you haven't been paying attention for the last 100 years or so. Every election in every country in the world has the same BS with politicians cryiing for simplicity, a return to common sense, less regulations and a system that is fair for everyone.
And in every country on earth, the tax systems get more complex, harder to understand and weigh far more in favor of the wealthy. It's just the way things go. Trumps beautiful tax plan that is being rushed through so they can get at least something passed, isn't going to be any different.
I am talking about the principle's of the plan, but your right, after everyone whines (States with enormous state income taxes and high property taxes and then the Real estate lobbyists who want their business subsidized, etc, etc) then they keep a little here and a little there and before you know it, its not so simple anymore.
But as the outline of the plan was shared and even with changes, its better than our current tax structure.
Lets figure the right tax rate by income group and be done with it.
Fair Tax, baby. :-)
Replaces all existing income taxes as well as payroll taxes with a single consumption tax. Pay a 30% tax on purchases of all new goods and services, excluding certain necessities, due to a "prebate." That's like a refund and it's offered at the beginning of each month so that certain purchases are essentially tax free.
1. Eliminates taxes on payroll and income.
2. Taxpayers get to keep their entire paycheck.
3. Taxpayers are taxed on consumption of goods and services.
4. ALL taxpayers are subject to the tax.
5. Retailers would collect and remit taxes to the Treasury.
6. IRS is eliminated.
I can live with that. LOL!
What about business owners? Do they pay tax on unsold items? What about resale to other businesses? What is a consumer item vs wholesale? Used goods? I could see a huge black market for stuff.
At least the Mexicans will love it. A wall won't even be needed anymore. You'll probably see lots of people emigrating to Mexico.
Sorry, all you pendejo gringos have to stay here. My name is now Antonio, so I'll be set. ;-)
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
big kahuna wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
blueraider_mike wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
Trumps plan is 1000 times better then the monstrosity of a tax code we have today I'm a tax accountant in Canada and our Income Tax Act is worse than the U.S Tax Code but if you think Trump's cursory plan is going to make it smaller and less complex, you haven't been paying attention for the last 100 years or so. Every election in every country in the world has the same BS with politicians cryiing for simplicity, a return to common sense, less regulations and a system that is fair for everyone.
And in every country on earth, the tax systems get more complex, harder to understand and weigh far more in favor of the wealthy. It's just the way things go. Trumps beautiful tax plan that is being rushed through so they can get at least something passed, isn't going to be any different.
I am talking about the principle's of the plan, but your right, after everyone whines (States with enormous state income taxes and high property taxes and then the Real estate lobbyists who want their business subsidized, etc, etc) then they keep a little here and a little there and before you know it, its not so simple anymore.
But as the outline of the plan was shared and even with changes, its better than our current tax structure.
Lets figure the right tax rate by income group and be done with it.
Fair Tax, baby. :-)
Replaces all existing income taxes as well as payroll taxes with a single consumption tax. Pay a 30% tax on purchases of all new goods and services, excluding certain necessities, due to a "prebate." That's like a refund and it's offered at the beginning of each month so that certain purchases are essentially tax free.
1. Eliminates taxes on payroll and income.
2. Taxpayers get to keep their entire paycheck.
3. Taxpayers are taxed on consumption of goods and services.
4. ALL taxpayers are subject to the tax.
5. Retailers would collect and remit taxes to the Treasury.
6. IRS is eliminated.
I can live with that. LOL!
What about business owners? Do they pay tax on unsold items? What about resale to other businesses? What is a consumer item vs wholesale? Used goods? I could see a huge black market for stuff.
At least the Mexicans will love it. A wall won't even be needed anymore. You'll probably see lots of people emigrating to Mexico.
Sorry, all you pendejo gringos have to stay here. My name is now Antonio, so I'll be set. ;-)
Now that I think about it, this would be the perfect way to get Mexico to pay for the wall.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
Is that loophole for hedge fund managers being repealed?
“Read the transcript.”
“Read the transcript.”
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [blueraider_mike]
[ In reply to ]
blueraider_mike wrote:
AND/OR you have to grow the economy which is one of the goals of this tax reform plan.
Don't buy into the lie.
So, we're going to borrow our way to prosperity?
“Read the transcript.”
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [sslothrop]
[ In reply to ]
sslothrop wrote:
Is that loophole for hedge fund managers being repealed?No habla ingles. Gringo. ;-)
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
If you go down there, let me set you up con mi familia en Durango....
Last edited by:
oldandslow: Nov 2, 17 21:49
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
big kahuna wrote:
One thing this plan's going to do -- at least on the surface -- is whack folks in high-tax states (California, Massachusetts, New York, especially) pretty hard, as well as those with severe medical expenses.
I count 27 'pubs in the House from NY, NJ and CA. I am pretty sure if any of them plan to ever get re-elected they are not voting for a tax bill that cuts exemptions for state/local taxes.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [tri_yoda]
[ In reply to ]
Add in Oregon/Minnesota/Iowa and a few others.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [sslothrop]
[ In reply to ]
Carried interest holding period goes from 1 to 2 yrs as they said on tv this morning, but one expert panelist said it was basically bs and rep Kevin Brady did a lalala, whatever. 1 trillion goes to business over decade, 300 billion to individuals and 200 billion to large estates per general discussion. Really helping Main Street....drain the swamps what a joke! All aimed for oligarchy.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [oldandslow]
[ In reply to ]
oldandslow wrote:
If you go down there, let me set you up con mi familia en Durango....I have an aunt and an uncle who own a ranch outside Nuevo Laredo and my brother-in-law and sister-in-law have been missionaries, operating a school, outside Mexico City for 20 years now. I could always become a vaquero, or help my in-laws with the Bible thumping/teaching thing. Whichever one pays better. ;-)
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [summitt]
[ In reply to ]
summitt wrote:
While I might have exaggerated on the marginal impact and left out the property tax part of the analysis, I think you went the other way. Most of the people who have that high a property tax and in the tax range you are talking about tend to be in the AMT. I've never seen property values change because someone fell in the AMT and they lost their deduction. Also, what percentage of people where real estate values are high relative to income have adjustable rate loans at less than 4%. Not sure how many are paying 4% for a 30 year mortgage? Haven't shopped mortgages in a long time.
Like I said before, rising interest rates will do more damage to housing prices than a change in the deduction amount.
Speaking of AMT, that's gone. That should make a lot of upper middle class taxpayers happy.
Planning on getting divorced and have to pay alimony? The plan eliminates the alimony deduction for new divorces (existing divorce agreements are grandfathered).
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [sslothrop]
[ In reply to ]
sslothrop wrote:
blueraider_mike wrote:
AND/OR you have to grow the economy which is one of the goals of this tax reform plan.
Don't buy into the lie.
So, we're going to borrow our way to prosperity?
And you are not paying attention to what I am saying. You cannot take one statement I said without looking at all I have said on this issue...and this is why our country is so fucked.
Your right, what we actually need to do is increase taxes and increase complexity - that will fix out problems.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
Honestly, I think the mortgage interest deduction should have been eliminated entirely. I realize there are some pricey home markets out there (and I still have an associate real estate broker's license, so I know a little about how the market operates) but some of that is due to how the deduction encourages rent seeking on the part of homebuilders, real estate brokers, mortgage brokers and lenders and it also encourages people to sometimes maybe buy more home than they should.
Many of these high-price locales also have far-too-restrictive rules for housing development, which has artificially pushed prices upwards. The Bay Area of California is one such spot. Seattle is another.
In San Francisco -- which also has rent control of apartments in buildings built before 1979, I believe -- there's little land left on which to build. That's a problem all around the Bay Area, where commute times can be quite long as people seek more affordable housing that's on available farther and farther away from the city. Add in zoning restrictions and a host of other housing development barriers (including some NIMBYism on the part of San Franciscans when it comes to affordable housing developments) and there's a perfect housing storm, so to speak.
Republican tax plan would hit Seattle, Eastside homebuyers dealing with pricey market | The Seattle Times
How Seattle Killed Micro-Housing | Sightline Institute
Seattle agrees to lower height limits of new houses on small lots | The Seattle Times
There's A Profoundly Simple Explanation For San Francisco's Housing Crisis | HuffPost
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Many of these high-price locales also have far-too-restrictive rules for housing development, which has artificially pushed prices upwards. The Bay Area of California is one such spot. Seattle is another.
In San Francisco -- which also has rent control of apartments in buildings built before 1979, I believe -- there's little land left on which to build. That's a problem all around the Bay Area, where commute times can be quite long as people seek more affordable housing that's on available farther and farther away from the city. Add in zoning restrictions and a host of other housing development barriers (including some NIMBYism on the part of San Franciscans when it comes to affordable housing developments) and there's a perfect housing storm, so to speak.
Republican tax plan would hit Seattle, Eastside homebuyers dealing with pricey market | The Seattle Times
How Seattle Killed Micro-Housing | Sightline Institute
Seattle agrees to lower height limits of new houses on small lots | The Seattle Times
There's A Profoundly Simple Explanation For San Francisco's Housing Crisis | HuffPost
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [big kahuna]
[ In reply to ]
The mortgage interest deduction needs to go. I mean if this deduction is ok, why don't we add back credit card interest? So sick of all the sacred cows.
I didn't respond to you yesterday cause I decided to work, well, cause, I have to pay my taxes.
But, the Fair Tax is the purest and best idea on taxes I have ever heard. The only ones who will comment on it negatively are folks who haven't really studied it.
I didn't respond to you yesterday cause I decided to work, well, cause, I have to pay my taxes.
But, the Fair Tax is the purest and best idea on taxes I have ever heard. The only ones who will comment on it negatively are folks who haven't really studied it.
Re: "The Cut Cut Cut! Act" (Tax Reform) [blueraider_mike]
[ In reply to ]
blueraider_mike wrote:
The mortgage interest deduction needs to go. I mean if this deduction is ok, why don't we add back credit card interest? So sick of all the sacred cows. I didn't respond to you yesterday cause I decided to work, well, cause, I have to pay my taxes.
But, the Fair Tax is the purest and best idea on taxes I have ever heard. The only ones who will comment on it negatively are folks who haven't really studied it.
"Change is hard," as someone I don't know once observed. ;-)
I think a Fair Tax system could work but it would require some effort and some faith. And both of those seem to be in short supply when it comes to jettisoning this quite-frankly-insane tax system we currently labor under.
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
It should completely go, I agree.
Most democrats will be against this reduction from 1 mil to 500k big time. The expensive and heavily inflated markets are generally very liberal. The democrats will see this as a direct attack at them.
Most democrats will be against this reduction from 1 mil to 500k big time. The expensive and heavily inflated markets are generally very liberal. The democrats will see this as a direct attack at them.