Fair enough. I see where you're coming from, but disagree with it. I've no doubt you've thought about the parallels with people who once thought interracial sex was objectionable and was an indicator of a breakdown of society. Or cultures where men were suddenly limited to one wife, against their religious teachings. There were even people who thought women being allowed to own property would lead to a lack of satisfaction for their husbands and lead to the moral breakdown of society.

It's far more likely than not that 25 years from now, nobody will even bat an eye that someone is gay or transsexual or a drag queen or whatever. They'll dig up old posts on the internet and marvel at them the way we read newspaper clippings about senators objecting to interracial marriage. The guy who cuts my hair is a drag queen on weekends, and my daughters saw him several times both in and out of drag as they were growing up. Do they care? Did it mess them up? No. Are they aware that people unlike them are people too? Yes. In their high school they both have transgender students in their classes. They both know gay and lesbian people. Is it an issue for them? No, and they're the ones who will be running the world in a generation.

I don't think we're "way beyond worrying about a possible breakdown in society." I think what you're seeing as a breakdown is more likely the slow act of recognizing that people with differences are still legitimate people.

It's funny, I've heard hundreds of claims about the degree to which sexual mores and morals might be passed on to other people but I've never met anyone who thinks that that's happened to them.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

This goes right back to the DEAR GOD, WHAT BATHROOM SHOULD THEY USE?!? threads... Both my kids have had classmates 'switch teams' ~ it's a bit awkward at first getting used to new names/pronouns, but beyond that it rates a big fat 'Meh' to them. Again, it's only the adults who are freaked out.

NAILED IT!!

Er, uh wait...

did a school invite the speaker in? or, per the article, did the speaker read at a public library on a Saturday?

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

There is lots of stuff that kids would get used to and say meh. We could have people walking around naked in public schools and after awhile kids would be meh. Not sure that in of itself makes things appropriate. Given that the prevalence of transgender is less than one percent I'd say its a bit weird that both your kids have had kids switch teams. Maybe its becoming a thing at their school.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm always surprised how divorce is nothing to my kids since so many of their friends have divorced/remarried parents. I didn't have any friends when I was kid with divorced parents. At the other end of spectrum, both of my kids think smokers are low lifes and avoid them like the plague.

I'm kind of wondering why we're dedicating a month to the celebration of the history of a group of people who are largely all put together based on who they like to have sex with. Of course, that also raises the question of why we lump homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, and whatever else, all into one group. Which further raises the question of why homosexuals and bisexuals would want to be lumped into the same group as transgenders, and whatever else.

Just one big mess.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I think that y'all are intermingling religion and spirituality with constitutional rights and personal liberties. Normalizing this kind of dress/behavior/sexual conduct is the only concern that I have with the pictured person. I am nobody to tell the pictured person how to behave, but he/she also should have no platform on which to tell me or my children how to behave.

If parents think that it's a good idea to have this person read to their child as someone who is revered because he/she is brave, courageous, outspoken, etc., then those parents lack proper judgment.

My best friend got divorced and his daughter has not spoken to him for two years. Kids understand the threat divorce is to their well being. We want our kids to think divorce is no big deal it is more convenient for us. We even send them to therapy to have them get over it.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'd guess normalizing this behavior is exactly the point of the event (and LGBT history month). It's a way to show kids that their society includes LGBT individuals. That's just a fact on which we can all agree: society includes these folks.

I recognize that you see this as somehow telling kids how to behave. I don't see that myself. I think that it's more about telling kids that if they are likewise oriented, that they are not alone.

I once asked a friend how did he "know" he was gay? His response: the same way you know you're straight; the same way you know with every fibre of you are wired for heterosexuality.
My point is that this is not behavior you can teach. You're LGBT or you're not. Hair and makeup have nothing to do with it. I know some don't share this belief. I'm not sure how to reconcile with that.

Perhaps we can agree that asking someone to hide who they are seems out of place in modern society. And perpetuating the belief that people thus oriented are abnormal is cruel.
Kids continue to kill themselves in response to the crippling isolation and stigmatization they suffer due to their orientation. A drag queen reading books at a voluntary event seems a small price to pay.

This reminds me of an utterly unrelated bit of trivia I heard today.

When the fork was first introduced in Venice it was condemned as being heathen and an affront to moral society.

"God in his wisdom has provided man with natural forks – his fingers. Therefore it is an insult to Him to substitute artificial metallic forks for them when eating. -St. Peter Damian"


The noblewoman who brought the forks to Venice died a few years later and it was seen as vindication that the forks were indeed an unholy evil that would destroy society.

You assume that children's sexual orientation is predetermined, while I think that a child's choice can be fashioned depending on the stressors, lessons, and the things/people that they interact with and the ideas that they are exposed to.

Let the LGBTs do their thing, they just don't need to do their demonstrations and casting calls in efforts to persuade children to think that such behavior should be imitated or that such behavior is normative (intentionally didn't use the word normal, b/c I'm fine with society thinking that LGBT is normal).

you know a lot of time could have been saved if you had simply stated you were a fucking moron from the outset.

That's unfair. He was on track to be very smart as a kid but a moron read him a book once and...you know the rest...

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Ding ding ding. Breton wins the internet!!!

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Are you serious? I really want to start calling you names, but that would put me on on your level. Your post would fit nicely on the trollish comments section of most web stories. You made no statement to substantiate your disagreement with my position, but instead you simply tried to insult me- as if that somehow wins you points on the internet... I bet you voted for T-Rump?

I find your insinuation that sexual preference can be "fashioned," imbecilic, lacking in any kind of reasoning, and representative of the kind of things fucking moron say.

Is that better?

I agree name calling isn't a substitution for reasoned debate. But it is the lavender room. And it was pretty funny. ;)

But back to your response: I get that not everyone sees sexual orientation as hard wired. But, with respect, that's just a belief. One you're entitled to. But an opinion not based on fact. Rather, its a position informed by a massive effort to rewrite history. Evidence of LBGTQ goes back thousands of years. Some indigenous languages have non-binary gender pronouns. And examples of same-sex sexual bevaiour across many species is rife in scientific literature. Religious dogma and some key historical figures did a masterful job of burying/obscuring the evidence and ratcheting up the hysteria but, like evolution, there's a solid grasp of human sexuality.

With respect, your statements about normalcy and fashioning orientation are antiquated. And not only out of touch with the body of knowledge on sexuality but also way off the mark with respect to psychology.

Anyways, glad to see an openess to discuss perspectives. Would love for you to get on the train. There are bigger fish to fry:
https://www.vice.com/...lture-not-your-trend

The name calling might now have been nice, but here try this:


It might help with that sick burn Bretom gave you.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

No dumbass. You are so black and white. I speak from experience (experience that I know others have had from discussing this topic) that I personally wasn't sure about MY sexual orientation and that if my childhood had been that of some folks that I know where one parent is gay or that I'd been adopted by gay parents that maybe I would have chosen to have sex with men instead of women.

You are so closed minded that you either cannot see the obvious or that you cannot read between the lines. You really should check your preconceived notions.

You read and comprehend the message that you want to comprehend so that you can demonize my personal expression and insinuate that I am advancing some hateful agenda because it seems like that you think that I am proposing to brainwash gays so that they no longer are gay, but what you are missing/not realizing is that that person's decision was already made.

I think that people should be free to decide for themselves their sexual identity without outside influence. And I don't think that anyone will disagree that children can be influenced to think a certain way.

1. You are literally the first person I have ever heard describe their own sexuality as a choice they made at some point in their life. I am NOT doubting you but that is remarkable to me.

2. How does "without outside influence" square with being raised without exposure to LGBTQ people? If a kid is raised in an exclusively heterosexual environment and has no inkling that any gay or mixed feelings they may have might be anything but a shameful aberration...isn't that the strongest sort of outside influence?

EDIT to add: if you are arguing that were raised in a straight household so chose to be straight, but may have chosen to be gay had you been raised in other circumstances, if there a bit of "thank goodness that..." in your position or am I projecting? In other words, if you'd had two raging queens for Dads and we stipulate that that somehow led you to choose to be gay and you were happy as such...why is that a worse outcome?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Evidence that something is present across a long stretch of history is hardly proof something is hardwired. Animals also do lots of things humans do not or should not so that doesn't tell me much either. I will readily accept that both sides of the debate have a vested interest in presenting their version of history.

I would also debate that we have a solid grasp of human sexuality. The long term effects of novel new family structures that were not the norm 30 years ago are yet to be seen. In the 70s we were told if you are unhappy get divorced the kids will be better off. They are quite adaptable they will be okay. Subsequent studies showed maybe not so.

We really don't have any idea what the long term effects of allowing people to change their anatomy will be if they feel they are transgender. Will it make them feel better 20 or 40 years from now, will they be less likely to commit suicide? We don't know. People still accept that 10 percent of the population is gay if you ask millennials they think its higher than that. The reality is it is more like 2-4 percent and the 10 percent number came from Kinsey's surveys of populations that were not at all representative of the general population. But the 10 percent rightly or wrongly was used because a higher number presented a more convincing argument that being gay is normal.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm impressed with the legs this thread has had since my OP, one in which I was mostly joking about the end of our run as country. Glad to see that people here have taken it so seriously. ;-)

That said, a few observations after reading through everyone's posts.

-- There's a difference between sexual orientation (i.e. heterosexuality, homosexuality, all the other "ality" stuff) and gender. As long as you're not hurting yourself or someone else, knock yourself out when it comes to orientation, because what you're doing in that regard is basically none of my business.

-- As far as we know, there are only two genders. Anything else is a mental illness, in my opinion.

-- Certain interest groups are doing their level best to conflate and confuse the admittedly fluid rules for sexual orientation with hard-and-fast rules for gender, as if such things are interchangeable and that XX and XY chromosomal pairings make absolutely no difference, both physiologically and psychologically. This couldn't be farther from the truth of things, as regards our gender.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Guys living a straight life who previously had sex with men do not usually go around bragging about it. Whereas most gay men are open about it now days.

If you look at studies, you can find that over half the male population sometimes have dreams about having sex with men. Also about 1/3 of all men have had sex with another man in their lifetime, but only about 2-10% say they are gay.

So it pretty easy to believe that there are large numbers of men who see sexuality as a choice. And in reality behavior is a choice for all men. Now is there really even a sexual orientation, or is that part of the story one tells themselves about ther own sexual behaviors.

Most of the men I know who are gay decided to leave the wives and live a gay live in their 40's or later. prior to that they raised families. Perhaps this is so because it was not appropriate to live as a gay man in society in the past so they chose to live straight lives. Or maybe they like getting more sex with men than they could get with there now old wives.

As they said on tv show House, people lie about sex. So I doubt we can really ever know all the true factors at play with sexual desires and behavior.