He's already backed up, from what I can tell.

So you don't think North Korea would be worried about the absolute destruction of their nation if they popped a nuke? If the term popped a nuke is unacceptable I apologize.

<< Of course, some of what they say is hyperbole, but we've been dealing with them for more than 65 years now, so I think we know how to separate speech from acts (especially acts of war). >>

That distinction - and questions about President Trump's ability to make it - is what is troubling right now. The President's statements to date can be interpreted as indicating an inability to see the difference, which makes people on both sides twitchy and runs the risk of turning speech into acts. I think everyone hopes this is just a case of fighting hyperbole with hyperbole, but someone needs to turn down the heated rhetoric a little bit. I think Secs. Tillerson and Mattis are doing what they can on that front.

How do you mean?

See post #23.

dude, read up on your history... a single bullet started WW1......Threats from NK with live nukes could start something.

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sometimes

I pointed this out in the other thread, but NK did not start the war-like rhetoric in response to the UN Sanctions. It's been ongoing daily since not long after the armistice. It just slightly changes every day to fit into various news events. Daily propaganda is about 90% about the glory and deeds of the Dear Leader, and 10% is about how we're going to set the U.S. on fire and dance on our ashes. Guam? Regular part of the schtick. Here's threat of imminent war on Guam from 2013.

The media just reports them in response to sanctions, etc, because that's when they're seeking statements from NK, and they just get the daily schtick.

Maybe it does escalate somewhat due to sanctions, but it's kind of hard to differentiate between, say, "we have final approval to nuke the United States," and "we will turn the United States into a boiled pumpkin"

You have to use the Trump tactic when using long sequences of mostly redundant words:

"The hatred, vitriol, and, frankly, venom."

You need the "frankly."

You're missing the point. It's not about what would happen if N.Korea launched a nuclear strike first. It's about what would happen if N.Korea's enemies attacked the regime or N.Korean territory. Having a nuclear capability is, for N.Korea, a bargaining tool and an insurance policy. Primarily, it's insurance against attack, because they know that if they're attacked, they're all going down anyway. So if they're already going down, they have nothing to lose, and with a nuclear capability they would be able to do serious and unacceptable damage to their enemies. That requires N.Korea's enemies to think twice before trying to topple the Kim regime or invade the North.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

This is true of everything. Shit goes down. Things go sideways fast. Surprises happen. So why aren't we running around screaming like maniacs about every nation and organization on Earth? (slowguy. I understand that no very few if any people are actually running around and screaming like maniacs about North Korea. I apologize for the hyperbole.) The panic in the US does not match the threat. As far WW1 goes I can discuss that all day. Would you like to discuss the generals? Would you like to hammer out what exactly incomposses the Battle Of The Frontiers? We can hypothesise what would have happened if the Schlieffen Plan would have worked. Was it ever possible for the plan to work in the first place. So yeah. Shit happens.

I mean his red line passed, and he did nothing, not even continuing with more threats, just talking about modernized the nuclear arsenal (when really it was Bush and Obama). Mostly silence, filled in by statements by Tillerson, et al.

The adults have taken over.

I can't stand the guy.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

We're also the glue that holds their country together in the sense that propaganda conditions the entire population from essentially birth that their core mission in life is defeating the U.S.. It's a love-hate relationship.

Manafort's house was raided by the FBI yesterday.

Also, we had darned near a full decade of running "Terror Alert Condition" tickers running across the bottom of every cable news channel. We'll survive CNN.

I'm surprised so many of you even watch cable TV. I cut the cord like a decade ago.

Right. This has a stabilization effect. The enemies will think twice before invading. I also don't see any nation building up to invade them. If the do use one on a foreign invasion then it will be time to panic because that is a massive destabilization. Now how does this justify the over the top talk from Trump and the media? How does this prove that we are under a direct threat from NK raining missiles down on us? The truth is that NK is a power we need to keep an eye on and keep in contact with but they are not going to attack the US.

Yeah, I was referring to this specific uptick in rhetoric. I understand there has been trash talk for decades.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

They may believe the chances of a US nuclear retaliation is low and may be over confident in their chances in a conventional conflict. The US military doesn't have the strongest track record against enemies that can retreat back into caves and tunnels for a few years.

They may also know that a nuke shot at the US will mean the end for them. They see that we love war and are just itching for it. They have seen our insane over reaction that is our war on terror. We want to make them into these huge war mongers that may do things but they aren't doing those things.

Doesn't matter if you or I see it. What matters is the perception of N.Korea regarding the threats surrounding them. They're about to see two weeks of pretty substantial military exercises with S.Korea, which we do a couple of times a year. We can explain that the exercises are defensive I nature till we're red in the face,...that's just not how they're going to perceive them.


I already criticized the media in the other Korea thread, and told you that I'm not commenting one way or the other about the President's statements. I'm not justifying any of that stuff.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I am lost. We agree that there is a threat but not the level of threat that the media and White House are talking, correct?

We agree, apparently, that there is a threat, which is much different than what you said in your first post.

We agree that the threat is not as imminent as the news media seems to be making is sound in their efforts to grab ratings.

I haven't heard the White House overstate the threat from N.Korea. The President made his own threats, but I haven't heard anyone from the WH or from DoD or DoS make it sound as if N.Korea was some sort of imminent existential threat.

We seem to disagree on the cause and motive behind the latest surge in rhetoric. You seem to think it's due to the President lagging in domestic polling. I think this latest uptick was caused by N.Korea's reaction to UN sanctions, and the President likely responding emotionally and by instinct rather than after measured discussion with his advisors.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Trump is the White House. Commander and chief. Any other president would see that North Korea being closer to having dependable ICBMs and nuclear warheads on them is not a good thing and would increase the threat level and inform the nation. The loudness that Trump is doing it makes me think he is doing it because he is trying to shift attention. Tweeting about "fire and fury" is unnecessary unless you want to get everyone worked up. Why would he want them worked up? To change the new cycle.

 
He didn't tweet about it. He was in a meeting about something else, he was asked about N.Korea's threats, and he responded in the moment.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

"The loudness that Trump is doing it makes me think he is doing it because he is trying to shift attention. Tweeting about "fire and fury" is unnecessary unless you want to get everyone worked up. Why would he want them worked up? To change the new cycle."

And you don't think that maybe, just maybe, he is responding to what he and just about everyone else except you view as a significant threat to a number of allied countries and, eventually, the mainland US? Maybe you think Trump and Kim Jung Un are actually in cohoots and they are orchestrating the whole thing.

That's quite a leap you are making there and exemplifies what I said earlier about the desperate and irrational measures lefties are taking to disparage Trump at any opportunity.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

You mentioned N.Korea sending a missile to within 30-40 km of Guam. Even a couple of years ago, they couldn't do that. If they can do it accurately, that's another step, over and above the distance itself.

I've never mentioned Guam.

Once they are able to miniaturize a nuclear warhead to weaponized it, that's another significant step.

The "threats" I was referring to are more related to South Korea and Japan. They have been threatening them for years and don't need a nuclear weapon to cause a lot of damage, particularly in SK. I still wouldn't take their nuclear threats against the U.S seriously.

Administrations in the U.S have always kind of kicked the can down the road when it comes to NK. Everyone knew they were led by a whacko but they were thought of as that annoying Uncle you just ignore. I've never heard a U.S President say they would be met with fire and fury and it is that language that has changed. Trump is now acting exactly like Kim, which really isn't that surprising, they are quite similar in a lot of ways. Both are pre-occupied about how others see them, want to project an air of toughness and seem to have a chip on their shoulder and have to prove themselves. The fact that 2 thin-skinned leaders are in a pissing contest is more worrisome to me than the fact that NK has a nuclear weapon. Lots of countries have that but none of them have a leader like Kim or Trump.