Why does Trump hate natural gas workers?
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [ironmayb]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [nslckevin]
[ In reply to ]
nslckevin wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Its not about it being a small number. Its about asking why THESE 174,000 jobs and not someone else's 174,000 jobs.
Because THESE 174,000 jobs are heavily concentrated in a particular geographic area, for one thing.
More importantly, because these 174,000 jobs are held by people who have already seen job opportunities dry up, and because they don't have a realistic option to replace those jobs. It's not just about the 174,000 jobs lost now- it's also about all the similar jobs that have already been lost, and are not longer available for them to seek.
If we were looking at the death of teaching in the next 20 years, would you be concerned about all the teachers who were being put out of work? Why or why not?
The political conversation though is stupid. Don't promise to bring back jobs that aren't coming back. Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Why promise (falsely) to prop up a dying industry?
I know why of course. Because that's what the people want to hear. Well, I want to hear the president promise a $50k per year raise, a 4 day work week (three during the prime summer riding hours) and retirement at 50. The difference is I KNOW that's a fantasy. Somebody needs to tell the hard truth to the people of KY and WV, etc. that coal is a dying industry and help them find something to replace it.
Let's fucking be honest and actually help the people as opposed to lying about how you're going to help them. Though I'm directing my rant at Trump and the republicans I am of course fully aware that another version of this rant can be directed at the democrats, and rightly so. Let's solve problems and not just make unrealistic promises that are impossible to keep.
I don't remember any presidential candidates in the 70's or 80's promising to bring the typewriter manufacturing jobs back...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra
I'll see your ONE solar company bankruptcy and raise you... 42.
https://www.snl.com/interactiveX/Article.aspx?cdid=A-32872208-12845&FreeAccess=1
And that is ignoring the fact that Solyndra was trying to develop and new technology and failed as opposed to these 42 companies that went out of business by just trying to continue to do business as they always had. i.e. a failing industry.
http://dailysignal.com/...een-energy-failures/
I have no idea how credible this source is. It is just the first thing after I googled "bankrupt solar companies"
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [nslckevin]
[ In reply to ]
nslckevin wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Its not about it being a small number. Its about asking why THESE 174,000 jobs and not someone else's 174,000 jobs.
Because THESE 174,000 jobs are heavily concentrated in a particular geographic area, for one thing.
More importantly, because these 174,000 jobs are held by people who have already seen job opportunities dry up, and because they don't have a realistic option to replace those jobs. It's not just about the 174,000 jobs lost now- it's also about all the similar jobs that have already been lost, and are not longer available for them to seek.
If we were looking at the death of teaching in the next 20 years, would you be concerned about all the teachers who were being put out of work? Why or why not?
The political conversation though is stupid. Don't promise to bring back jobs that aren't coming back. Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Why promise (falsely) to prop up a dying industry?
I know why of course. Because that's what the people want to hear. Well, I want to hear the president promise a $50k per year raise, a 4 day work week (three during the prime summer riding hours) and retirement at 50. The difference is I KNOW that's a fantasy. Somebody needs to tell the hard truth to the people of KY and WV, etc. that coal is a dying industry and help them find something to replace it.
Let's fucking be honest and actually help the people as opposed to lying about how you're going to help them. Though I'm directing my rant at Trump and the republicans I am of course fully aware that another version of this rant can be directed at the democrats, and rightly so. Let's solve problems and not just make unrealistic promises that are impossible to keep.
I don't remember any presidential candidates in the 70's or 80's promising to bring the typewriter manufacturing jobs back...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra
I'll see your ONE solar company bankruptcy and raise you... 42.
https://www.snl.com/interactiveX/Article.aspx?cdid=A-32872208-12845&FreeAccess=1
And that is ignoring the fact that Solyndra was trying to develop and new technology and failed as opposed to these 42 companies that went out of business by just trying to continue to do business as they always had. i.e. a failing industry.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/...mpanies-2015-Edition
heres another list which I believe begins in the years after the first article was published.
Again, I am just spit balling here with google........
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
vitus979 wrote:
Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Because yesterday the same people who are objecting to Trump's promise to help save coal mining jobs were objecting to Trump's promise to help save manufacturing jobs, on the very same grounds.
If you think it's just the coal mining jobs that are being lost, and they can be replaced with manufacturing jobs in the clean energy biz, I'm all in for that. But I thought all the manufacturing jobs that don't get shipped overseas are about to be lost to automation, so is that really a viable option?
Solar was an example off the top of my head. Pick any GROWING industry that needs employees with high school degrees.
Kevin
http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [nslckevin]
[ In reply to ]
Look, I'm not trying to be difficult, but what industry are you talking about?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [nslckevin]
[ In reply to ]
nslckevin wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Because yesterday the same people who are objecting to Trump's promise to help save coal mining jobs were objecting to Trump's promise to help save manufacturing jobs, on the very same grounds.
If you think it's just the coal mining jobs that are being lost, and they can be replaced with manufacturing jobs in the clean energy biz, I'm all in for that. But I thought all the manufacturing jobs that don't get shipped overseas are about to be lost to automation, so is that really a viable option?
Solar was an example off the top of my head. Pick any GROWING industry that needs employees with high school degrees.
doesn't the industry we pick also have to account for the loss of the uses of coal as well?
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
vitus979 wrote:
Look, I'm not trying to be difficult, but what industry are you talking about?it's a really cool industry. It replaces any need for coal and fully employees all the people already directly and indirectly employed in the coal industry. And it does it instantaneously.
And it does it while the Fed govt is simultaneously trying to destroy this industry while funding its competitors (other privately held companies) with tax dollars.
You should really jump on this before someone else beats you to it. This is gonna be YUGE!!!!!!!!
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [Velocibuddha]
[ In reply to ]
Velocibuddha wrote:
Why does Trump hate natural gas workers?good question.
If he was placing unreasonable regulation on the natural gas industry we could make that case.
If he planned to relieve the coal industry of regulation beyond that which was imposed on it for (I believe) the sole purpose of destroying it we could as well.
If he started sending taxpayer funds to either industry in an attempt to take the place of what venture capitalists should be doing in seeking alternative sources of energy we could as well.
But he's not really doing any of that (so far) is he.
I'll be the first in line to complain when he does.
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [FishyJoe]
[ In reply to ]
FishyJoe wrote:
orchidrun wrote:
FishyJoe wrote:
Consequently, if we really want to bring more manufacturing, we badly need engineers. The choices are educate more engineers and/or hire more foreign engineers. Plain and simple, without more engineers it's pointless to build more production facilities. But we need those coal mining jobs...
The loss of coal jobs isn't even about the jobs....it's about the coal. We need coal for baseload electricity. We are closing the nuclear plants which is one of the other baseload options. Wind and sun just aren't going to cut it in the long run. Everybody wants their clean electric cars.....but that electricity still has to be produced by something on a large scale basis.
So why isn't anyone fighting for the nuclear jobs? These are higher paying, safer jobs which have more transferrable skills.
That is just crazy talk. Coal, steam powered ships, buggy whips, typewriters. That's the kind of jobs we need to protect.
drn92
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [nslckevin]
[ In reply to ]
nslckevin wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Its not about it being a small number. Its about asking why THESE 174,000 jobs and not someone else's 174,000 jobs.
Because THESE 174,000 jobs are heavily concentrated in a particular geographic area, for one thing.
More importantly, because these 174,000 jobs are held by people who have already seen job opportunities dry up, and because they don't have a realistic option to replace those jobs. It's not just about the 174,000 jobs lost now- it's also about all the similar jobs that have already been lost, and are not longer available for them to seek.
If we were looking at the death of teaching in the next 20 years, would you be concerned about all the teachers who were being put out of work? Why or why not?
The political conversation though is stupid. Don't promise to bring back jobs that aren't coming back. Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Why promise (falsely) to prop up a dying industry?
Oh my gawd! That's brilliant!!! Why hasn't anyone thought of that?!?!?!
The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies promoted under the Obama Administrations (denotes government money lost):
- Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
- SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
- Solyndra ($535 million)*
- Beacon Power ($43 million)*
- Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
- SunPower ($1.2 billion)
- First Solar ($1.46 billion)
- Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
- EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
- Amonix ($5.9 million)
- Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
- Abound Solar ($400 million)*
- A123 Systems ($279 million)*
- Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
- Johnson Controls ($299 million)
- Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
- ECOtality ($126.2 million)
- Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
- Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
- Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
- Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
- Range Fuels ($80 million)*
- Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
- Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
- Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
- GreenVolts ($500,000)
- Vestas ($50 million)
- LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
- Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
- Navistar ($39 million)
- Satcon ($3 million)*
- Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
- Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA]
[ In reply to ]
JSA wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Its not about it being a small number. Its about asking why THESE 174,000 jobs and not someone else's 174,000 jobs.
Because THESE 174,000 jobs are heavily concentrated in a particular geographic area, for one thing.
More importantly, because these 174,000 jobs are held by people who have already seen job opportunities dry up, and because they don't have a realistic option to replace those jobs. It's not just about the 174,000 jobs lost now- it's also about all the similar jobs that have already been lost, and are not longer available for them to seek.
If we were looking at the death of teaching in the next 20 years, would you be concerned about all the teachers who were being put out of work? Why or why not?
The political conversation though is stupid. Don't promise to bring back jobs that aren't coming back. Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Why promise (falsely) to prop up a dying industry?
Oh my gawd! That's brilliant!!! Why hasn't anyone thought of that?!?!?!
The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies promoted under the Obama Administrations (denotes government money lost):
- Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
- SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
- Solyndra ($535 million)*
- Beacon Power ($43 million)*
- Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
- SunPower ($1.2 billion)
- First Solar ($1.46 billion)
- Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
- EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
- Amonix ($5.9 million)
- Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
- Abound Solar ($400 million)*
- A123 Systems ($279 million)*
- Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
- Johnson Controls ($299 million)
- Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
- ECOtality ($126.2 million)
- Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
- Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
- Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
- Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
- Range Fuels ($80 million)*
- Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
- Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
- Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
- GreenVolts ($500,000)
- Vestas ($50 million)
- LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
- Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
- Navistar ($39 million)
- Satcon ($3 million)*
- Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
- Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.
I think that is the same list as the article I attached in #52 above so I feel better about the source.
The article attached has a paragraph right below the list which makes the point that the bigger issue is the Fed Govt getting involved in the picking of winners and losers in the first place. That's what private equity and VC is for.
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [cerveloguy]
[ In reply to ]
Uhm ... yeah ... because Obama promised to put them out of business!
That's the point, genius!!!
Wow.
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
That's the point, genius!!!
Wow.
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA]
[ In reply to ]
Coal is an antique, or soon will be. Get over it.
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA]
[ In reply to ]
JSA wrote:
Uhm ... yeah ... because Obama promised to put them out of business! That's the point, genius!!!
Wow.
Weird thought...
Could it be that low energy prices (especially natural gas) was the cause of both the coal AND the green energy bankruptcies?
Of course, coal companies go bankrupt every 20 years without or without competition from natural gas or clean energy.
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [cerveloguy]
[ In reply to ]
cerveloguy wrote:
Coal is an antique, or soon will be. Get over it.Antiques are worth a lot of money, more than the IKEA of industries promoted by the former Administration.
You are REALLY off your game tonight!
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [Velocibuddha]
[ In reply to ]
Velocibuddha wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uhm ... yeah ... because Obama promised to put them out of business! That's the point, genius!!!
Wow.
Weird thought...
Could it be that low energy prices (especially natural gas) was the cause of both the coal AND the green energy bankruptcies?
Of course, coal companies go bankrupt every 20 years without or without competition from natural gas or clean energy.
Or it could be the former President who promised to put them out of business ...
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [cerveloguy]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA]
[ In reply to ]
JSA wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uhm ... yeah ... because Obama promised to put them out of business! That's the point, genius!!!
Wow.
Weird thought...
Could it be that low energy prices (especially natural gas) was the cause of both the coal AND the green energy bankruptcies?
Of course, coal companies go bankrupt every 20 years without or without competition from natural gas or clean energy.
Or it could be the former President who promised to put them out of business ...
Yeah.
Economics are irrelevant.
Its all about what Trump and Obama say.
Last edited by:
Velocibuddha: Mar 3, 17 17:25
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [Velocibuddha]
[ In reply to ]
Trump will put an end to this economics crap.
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP]
[ In reply to ]
BarryP wrote:
Based on an exchange with Vitus, I did a bit of research and found this interesting: 174,000 jobs directly related to the coal industry.
Current number of unemployed Americans = 7.9 million.
If we erased the coal industry tomorrow and replaced it with nothing, the unemployment rate would rise from 4.9% to 5.0%.
Holy fuck, please stick to engineering because you have no grasp of economics. Funnier yet, your job probably is indirectly influenced by the coal industry. Oh, hang you're an "engineer" and apparently the steel you use to build shit doesn't need coal. Just another idiot with a 5.0 GPA that can't see past his nose. On the bright side you can probably see Virginia from your house!
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [cerveloguy]
[ In reply to ]
cerveloguy wrote:
Coal is an antique, or soon will be. Get over it.What's the LR consensus about nuclear? Is that the way for us to go in the future? Or is it natural gas? And how do we get the natural gas? Why does drill baby drill not work for oil but works for natural gas (or do we not have to drill for that)?
We cant use coal. We cant drill for oil. We cant frack. We cant use the Keystone pipeline.
So far we haven't come up with a viable wind, or solar or switch grass alternative for electricity.
I am more than happy to ditch coal. Where do I go?
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [Velocibuddha]
[ In reply to ]
Velocibuddha wrote:
JSA wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uhm ... yeah ... because Obama promised to put them out of business! That's the point, genius!!!
Wow.
Weird thought...
Could it be that low energy prices (especially natural gas) was the cause of both the coal AND the green energy bankruptcies?
Of course, coal companies go bankrupt every 20 years without or without competition from natural gas or clean energy.
Or it could be the former President who promised to put them out of business ...
Yeah.
Economics are irrelevant.
Its all about what Trump and Obama say.
Do you now know what Obama did to the coal industry??? Really???
Ho-ly shit ...
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA]
[ In reply to ]
JSA wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
Coal is an antique, or soon will be. Get over it.Antiques are worth a lot of money, more than the IKEA of industries promoted by the former Administration.
You are REALLY off your game tonight![/quote}
I sure am. Consider that Trump is promoting a dinosaur while China has already committed a 360 billion dollar budget (almost three times their annual military budget) for renewable energy research/development by 2020. What is your president contributing towards this? Guess who could likely surpass the the USA in clean energy technology in the near future.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/world/asia/china-renewable-energy-investment.html?_r=0
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cerveloguy: Mar 3, 17 17:35
Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [cerveloguy]
[ In reply to ]
It takes a special kind of ignorance to think it is an either/or issue.
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers
Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR