A slow phase out plan with some sort of plan to help the local economies would make much more sense.

OK. What kind of plan do you have in mind?



If these towns need coal to survive, then its only inevitable that they are going to fail. That doesn't mean that I suggest ripping the bandaid off, but preparing to phase it out now would certainly be better than ripping it off later.

I am fine with that. No, I'm violently in favor of that. The problem, though, is that I want us to be able to phase something IN at the same time we're phasing coal out. And I have not heard what that something could be.

And it isn't limited to coal mining, and certainly not limited to coal mining towns. I see this as an issue that has already impacted vast swaths of Americans, and is going to impact many, many more in the very near future. People have largely not cared too much about the losses to the middle class, because they happened to those without a college degree, and who really cares if Detroit rusts into oblivion, I guess. But the losses are going to accelerate and swallow up more and more people at that skill level, and it isn't going to stop with them. I fear that what we're facing is an employment cataclysm, and a holding a couple of college degrees isn't going to save many people. I hope I'm wrong about that, but in the meantime, large numbers of Americans are facing the problem already. I think we should do what we can to protect them and their ability to work hard and earn a good living for themselves and their families.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Is that what you were in favor of when the EPA hammered the coal industry under Obama? There was a time and place for 'slow phase out plan', now is not that time. The jobs are gone, the coal regions are in awful shape. What the aim is for Trump, in the short term, seems to be to roll back those regs and help regain some of those jobs. Maybe then some retraining will help, work with the states to incentivize some clean energy companies to open up shop for more blue collar positions.

It's funny, for eight years under Obama no one batted an eye when he hammered the 'I want to kill the coal industry' narrative. Now the voters have spoken and surprisingly, those who worked in the mines kinda liked having jobs. There's a responsible way to do things, I think what Obama and the EPA did was pretty irresponsible.

It is all a bit moot. Except

To those it affects dierectly and
To those who choose to start threads about it as a way to trash the current holder of the office who is tying to do something about it.

I am just trying to point out that the current holder of the office didn't just pick this as a pet cause. It was done in direct response to the fact that the previous holder targeted this industry for elimination. And did so without answering many of the good questions being raised here. Like what about these people's lives. And what about electricity. And what about nuclear. And the two candidates seeking to replace him on the same side followed suit

This whole thread is about how many or how few jobs we are talking about. But it ignores that trump is speaking to this issue and to manufacturing jobs etc etc and it is resonating. Not just because he is speaking positively about it but because the other side either didn't speak as well about it or in some cases was directly opposed to it. That's fine but don't expect the people who it affects directly to support you. And if you want to win a national election you can no longer do that to the coal and rust belt and expect to prevail. Even if you do win the popular vote of the country as a whole.


EDIT: bottom line here Steve is you and I are both not thrilled that the man is in office. But instead of looking at all the conspiracy theories as to why the happened the D party really ought to be taking a close look at how and why that happened and start doing something about the states like MI and WI that they just assumed were in their pocket to start the process.

Technically, he's correct.

Yes but Trump is pulling a "Sessions" by being very misleading.

So why isn't anyone fighting for the nuclear jobs? These are higher paying, safer jobs which have more transferrable skills.

Hmmmm......I guess I can respect that.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Hence one of the problems with our election process. No one would care much about coal jobs if they didn't need PA and OH to win elections.


I think this goes back to the O-OP (from the other thread). Everyone understands that it resonates. I just don't think Trump is going to bring back coal and manufacturing in any meaningful way. Trump is promising to return the cheese that's been moved because people don't want to change (yes, I get the fact that a 60 year old coal miner has little other options), but I just don't think its going to happen.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

The political conversation though is stupid. Don't promise to bring back jobs that aren't coming back. Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry? Why promise (falsely) to prop up a dying industry?

I know why of course. Because that's what the people want to hear. Well, I want to hear the president promise a $50k per year raise, a 4 day work week (three during the prime summer riding hours) and retirement at 50. The difference is I KNOW that's a fantasy. Somebody needs to tell the hard truth to the people of KY and WV, etc. that coal is a dying industry and help them find something to replace it.

Let's fucking be honest and actually help the people as opposed to lying about how you're going to help them. Though I'm directing my rant at Trump and the republicans I am of course fully aware that another version of this rant can be directed at the democrats, and rightly so. Let's solve problems and not just make unrealistic promises that are impossible to keep.

I don't remember any presidential candidates in the 70's or 80's promising to bring the typewriter manufacturing jobs back...

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I think the miners and the supporting industries and all their families would, don't you?

That said, do you care more about coal jobs or genderless/transgender bathrooms? I think it's a decent corollary...let's say about 1% of the workforce is impacted by the coal industry, about 1% of people are impacted by gender identity. One the one hand there's outcry about not providing bathroom options for trans people, on the other there's outcry over EPA regulations killing jobs. Which one should we care more about?

I think you are wrong here. About problems with our election process; what you describe is not a problem it is exactly why we have the process we do. And when MI and WI were consistently blue this process wasn't a problem at all. And about anyone caring about coal jobs in PA and OH. I think YOU don't care about coal jobs in PA and OH because these jobs butt up against something you are passionate about. That's fine but it blinds you to the way others see it.
;
I think the previous administration cared about coal jobs in PA and OH. And wanted to eliminate as many as they could.

I think the current administration cares about coal jobs in PA and OH and is trying to save as many as they can for as long as they can.

Both administrations "cared" about these job. The people who these jobs directly effect voted based on their view of which one cared the way they cared.

I say let the coal industry die.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Are you saying let it die, or kill it like the regulations put in place over the last few years were designed to do?

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************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra

I think you are wrong here. About problems with our election process; what you describe is not a problem it is exactly why we have the process we do.

Exactly. Long live the electoral college.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Let it.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Gephardt did (kind of). Hard-core protectionism has historically been a Democrat/union thing. This version is pretty much pure Gephardt wrapped up with enough red, white and blue nationalism, and big dollop of electoral pandering to allow the GOP to swallow it for a now. Thread reminds me of an article from two months ago (black lung):

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/15/505577680/advanced-black-lung-cases-surge-in-appalachia

I disagree about it being why we have the process we do. We have the process we do because there was no TV and it was a several day's travel by horse to hear a politician's speech.

I do, however, get your point about the Tyranny of the Majority. ie The majority aren't coal miners so the majority won't care, yet the jobs are saved by the electoral college. How many upstate NY jobs were saved by the electoral college? Coal is only an issue because happenstance of which states the coal happens to reside in. If Philly and Pittsburg didn't exist in PA, the state would be solidly red and no one would be courting the vote here.

I'm certainly compassionate about shipping jobs over seas. That's something that's not necessary. Whole towns are devastated because companies have to compete with other companies shipping their jobs over seas. All of that could have been stopped with legislation, but no one did (from either party).

Coal is a different issue altogether. It needs to go away.


And FWIW, I vote against my own economic self interests all the time. Do you think I voted for Bush when I was a defense contractor? We had HUGE business as a result of the very war that I opposed.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Great idea, hire those 174,000 peeps into ICE and border patrol so they get to work rounding up all those illegal criminal aliens.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose that.



(though I'm on record for being anti-illegal immigration).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Promise to bring NEW jobs into that area to replace the coal jobs. Why not manufacture solar panels or something that is part of a GROWING industry?

Because yesterday the same people who are objecting to Trump's promise to help save coal mining jobs were objecting to Trump's promise to help save manufacturing jobs, on the very same grounds.

If you think it's just the coal mining jobs that are being lost, and they can be replaced with manufacturing jobs in the clean energy biz, I'm all in for that. But I thought all the manufacturing jobs that don't get shipped overseas are about to be lost to automation, so is that really a viable option?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I'm not sure where you drove through (77 corridor?), but will definitely agree that parts of WV are quite pretty (I grew up in coal country, 30 miles from WV).

However if you ever fly over the parts of WV where mountaintop removal has been going on, you will be amazed at the change in landscape, and "absolutely beautiful" is not the term that will come to mind.

I'll see your ONE solar company bankruptcy and raise you... 42.

https://www.snl.com/interactiveX/Article.aspx?cdid=A-32872208-12845&FreeAccess=1


And that is ignoring the fact that Solyndra was trying to develop and new technology and failed as opposed to these 42 companies that went out of business by just trying to continue to do business as they always had. i.e. a failing industry.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Well, far less black lung in border patrol.

I believe you. Just as I believe you "care" about coal jobs and your vote(s) reflect support for those who care about it in the same way you do.

I am not "opposed" to coal jobs going away. Its the means and methods I take issue with.

does that also ignore the $535M in stimulus we spent on it? Edit: sorry it was only 535M not 535B