Is the rest of NATO going to start pulling their weight, or not?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You're turning into Trump's chief ball washer here.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

lol. Screw NATO anyway. The Cold War is over, the alliance is a relic.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Is the rest of NATO going to start pulling their weight, or not?

I don't know but Trump said NATO was obsolete and this morning Pence said the U.S fully supports them and that the U.S support is unwavering.

I'm just not sure what the position is, at least until someone clarifies what either Pence or Trump really meant to say.

I don't know what Trump's position is, either.

But NATO is obsolete.

If everyone wants to keep it around for old time's sake, whatever, but the other member states don't have a right to expect us to hold up to our end of the treaty when they haven't been keeping up their side of the bargain.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

But NATO is obsolete.


If everyone wants to keep it around for old time's sake, whatever, but the other member states don't have a right to expect us to hold up to our end of the treaty when they haven't been keeping up their side of the bargain.


I think NATO is obsolete too, the threats today are not the same as they were 50 years ago. The problem now is that Russia loved Trump's comments about distancing the U.S from the international alliances and he repeatedly said NATO was obsolete and said things were going to change. With Pence saying the complete opposite, it's hard to say what the position is right now.


This morning, Europe is relieved and Russia is angry so it looks to me like nothing has changed bin the world order that both Trump and Bannon were going to change. I'm not sure if Pence is taking a line that differs from Trump/Bannon or if the administration position suddenly changed.

With Pence saying the complete opposite, it's hard to say what the position is right now.

There's a term for that: constructive ambiguity.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Spoken like someone with no experience with NATO in any way.

Stick to what you know.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You give them too much credit. They can't get any of there team on message on simple stuff. You really think they could all get on the same page with "constructive ambiguity?"

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity," Hanlon's Razor.

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Suffer Well.

It's not like NATO is some obscure organization that only those with direct, inside knowledge of can truly understand, commodore.

It's a structure that served its purpose well during the Cold War. It's been superseded by history.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Like I said, stick to what you know. NATO does quite a bit, for us and for the rest of the member nations. The fact that its original purpose may or may no longer be central doesn't mean it hasn't adapted to new purposes, or that it's obsolete.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I assume you believe the mission of NATO is tone oppose the USSR. That is obsolete.

But do you think the concept of alliance with long time trusted allies is obsolete?

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

^^^^^^^ this x100


NATO's purpose is not just to fight enemies, its to prevent potential enemies from becoming powerful enough to be a threat. A weak NATO will mean a weak EUrope will mean Russian Empire resurgance will mean Russian Hegemony will eventually mean American children will be under a real threat.

Trump seems to be playing checkers, looking only one move ahead. He needs to start letting intelligent grownups resume playing chess and thinking 10 moves ahead.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

The checkers vs chess analogy is a good one. I am sure Putin is licking his lips at the prospect of negotiations of any type with his little Orange Bitch. Art of the deal? Ha.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

He'll support NATO but will continue to work on pressuring members to pay their share.


At the same time, he's working on gaining the world's respect.

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

I think the concept of maintaining an expensive, decades long military presence in Europe is obsolete. I think the idea that we should treat any attack on a NATO member as an attack on us is obsolete. I think the idea that there exists a military threat that requires NATO is obsolete. I think the idea that NATO is the best or most effective or most efficient way to deal with the actual threats we face today is obsolete. I think the idea that the United States can or should maintain some kind of quasi-empire in the interest of global peace is obsolete. I think the idea that we need NATO in order to maintain or build alliances with friendly nations is obsolete. I think the idea that America should continue to support nations who don't even pay their share is obsolete.

Etc and so forth. It's not that NATO doesn't do anything. It's that much of what it does doesn't need to be done, and the rest can be done just as or more effectively without NATO.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

In his defense, Trump's game has always been Monopoly. I'd be shocked if he actually knew how to play chess.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Mention of "fair share" gets a little old given the considerable benefit we garner from these treaty organizations, the fact that we went many years without paying our dues to the UN, the fact that most of what we provide might very well be in place regardless of NATO, etc. Especially since most people don't know what countries are supposed to pay to NATO to begin with.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Etc and so forth. It's not that NATO doesn't do anything. It's that much of what it does doesn't need to be done, and the rest can be done just as or more effectively without NATO.

I agree and I agreed with Trump during the election campaign. I also read a lot about Steve Bannon talking about a new world order. I'm not sure what exactly that meant but if they meant closer ties with Russia and leaving organizations like NATO, it would certainly change the existing order. I think the current risks are not being addressed by NATO. For example, maybe I'm wrong but how many terrorist attacks were stopped by NATO?

One of the big problems in U.S intelligence is the tendency for the different agencies to keep information to themselves. It was a problem in the years leading up to 9/11 and I bet it is still one. If one U.S agency can't co-operate with another U.S agency, why would they work with another country? And why would other countries do the same with the U.S? All governments want to take credit for things they do and they certainly don't want to share the credit with others.

That said, the talk by Pence certainly didn't sound like a change in the world order. He is talking about a close alignment with NATO and that isn't going to make the Russians happy at all. Not that it's a problem keeping the Russians on their toes but there are definitely mixed messages.

Does any of that have anything to do with the fact that most of NATO isn't meeting their obligation under the terms of the alliance?

http://money.cnn.com/...-spending-countries/

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Well it has somewhat to do with it since what you're referring to is agreement on how much each country should spend out of its own budget on its own national defense. As opposed to, you know, what they're supposed to pay to NATO.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Who said anything about paying NATO?

Are most member states meeting their obligation and pulling their weight, or not?

It's simple, and it's inescapable. They're not. They're relying on us to cover it. Even they acknowledge it. Maybe you want to try a different argument or something.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Well, you when you said that countries don't "pay their fair share."

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)