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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
I recognise that sex is a major determinant of self-identity, but not the sole one, especially in pre-pubescents.

What of my proposal to strip them of personality as well as sex until they choose one for themselves?




Personality seems necessary as a baseline for humanity. Sex isn't.

But . . . let's say you could raise a sentient being without a personality for 13 years (what fun that would be) and then let them choose, like a kid at a candy store -- that could be a great sequel to the first novel i'm not writing.
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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where body mod is taken to outrageous levels. It releases some terrible inner tension. It's not for me to say you can't do it.

Respectfully, I find that to be a harmful, false compassion.

That kind of body modification doesn't truly release that terrible inner tension, it's only a harmful and self-destructive manifestation thereof. It might not be for you to say someone can't do it, but it's certainly incumbent on you to say they shouldn't do, or that you wish they wouldn't resort to harming themselves to deal with whatever psychological issues they're struggling with, and that they should find a more healthy way to address their problems.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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Personality seems necessary as a baseline for humanity. Sex isn't.

Of course it is. You don't know any asexual human beings. There is a tiny number of hermaphrodites, which is a disorder- but even they aren't asexual. Moreover, it's inextricably linked to personality.


But . . . let's say you could raise a sentient being without a personality for 13 years (what fun that would be) and then let them choose, like a kid at a candy store -- that could be a great sequel to the first novel i'm not writing.

In theory, it's not all that much different from your original idea, except it has more benefits and fewer drawbacks.

Would parents have the right to do that to their kids if they were able?









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
That kind of body modification doesn't truly release that terrible inner tension, it's only a harmful and self-destructive manifestation thereof. It might not be for you to say someone can't do it, but it's certainly incumbent on you to say they shouldn't do, or that you wish they wouldn't resort to harming themselves to deal with whatever psychological issues they're struggling with, and that they should find a more healthy way to address their problems.

If it's someone I know and have access to, I would intervene and suggest the healthier way.

Do you mean take a public stance against it, generally?

An adult has sovereignty over their own body -- I'm not going to preach about an issue that ultimately doesn't affect me.
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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If it's someone I know and have access to, I would intervene and suggest the healthier way.

Do you mean take a public stance against it, generally?


I don't insist you take a public stance against it. I just say that it isn't a healthy thing, and at the very least, should not be celebrated or twisted into some civil rights issue. Just as I don't insist that you campaign against a person's "right" to gouge their own eyes out, but would hope you wouldn't think doing so is a matter of empowerment.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
Personality seems necessary as a baseline for humanity. Sex isn't.

Of course it is. You don't know any asexual human beings.

we may be talking past each other. Asexual in my mind is someone who is not driven in any way by sexual interest. And I do know people like this.

Do you mean asexual as in unmale, or unfemale, or un-somewhere in between the two? Because agreed, nobody like this exists.
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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Do you mean asexual as in unmale, or unfemale, or un-somewhere in between the two?

Yes. Is that not the premise of your unwritten novel?

I agree that there are people who are asexual in the sense that they aren't driven by interest in sexual relations. Just about every pre-pubescent kid, and some adults.

We have, I was pretty sure, been talking about biological sex- the state of being male or female. And my contention is that being male or female is a fundamental, baseline aspect of humanity, and not something that can simply be tacked on to a biologically asexual being at some point of its choosing, as if it was a matter of putting on a wig.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
I am talking about a sci-fi (now) scenario in which gender can be stipulated fairly easily, as can a neither/nor state, which would leave the decision to the child.

No offense, but that wouldn't be a particularly smart sci-fi scenario. Or maybe it would actually be more of a horror movie- a world in which we maim our own children in the name of some ideology of "free expression."

One's sex is a matter of biology- and also fundamental to who we are. It isn't something incidental or cosmetic like one's hair color, or height, or even intelligence. At what point in a child's development would a child finally be allowed to become fully human? How would you treat them up until that point? How could you possibly expect them to develop normally?



The potential consequences of this sort of thing could be disastrous. Nature does a pretty good job of ensuring there are enough males and females to continue to procreate. Humans are idiots. Without fail, there would come a time where it was fashionable to only have children of a certain sex, and the population would become lopsided. Then we'd be paying people to have children of the other sex, or we'd be put into an untenable situation with regard to gender distribution.

Some things really should be left to nature/God/whatever random force you believe in.

Dr. Strangelove disagrees with you.

By the way, I got to see some of the movie this past weekend.
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

And my contention is that being male or female is a fundamental, baseline aspect of humanity, and not something that can simply be tacked on to a biologically asexual being at some point of its choosing, as if it was a matter of putting on a wig.


alrighty. Apart from sex, are there any other fundamentals?
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Re: Abortion rights for transgender men? [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure there are- but none that people seem to think of as some kind of optional accessory. It's striking how confused we are about that when it comes to something as basic as one's biological sex.

One can imagine all sorts of dystopian scenarios in which various aspects that are crucial to being truly human are abused- and while they might be technically possible, and wouldn't wipe out one's actual humanity, they still amount to abuse.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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