Let's start by acknowledging equal culpability between the Jews and the Arabs. I would never call it equal, but if we start there we have a basis.

When Joshua led the Jews into the promised land, there were other inhabitants on that land. The Jews may believe that the land was promised to them by God, but God somewhere made a mistake and promised it to other people's too. Besides, in the 700 AD, that land was captured by the Assyrians, and it has not been the land of the tribes since - about 2,700 years ago.

I am not censoring others, only moderator can do that. I am expressing my thoughts on the topick. You don't like it, don't read it :)

Those other inhabitants weren't Arab or, at least, modern day Arabs occupying the Middle East mostly don't originate from those people against whom the Israelites contended. Again, the word "Palestine" originates from a Philistine word (one of the peoples against whom the Israelites fought, and who aren't ancestors of today's Arabs) for, basically, "over there by the sea," which was used to describe the land that you think of as Palestine.

So, then: As to your historical view of the territorial claims of the Jews, you'd agree that they have rights similar to primogeniture because they were there well before modern Arabs (who were almost exclusively nomadic peoples for much of the history of that region and almost never thought in terms of territorial claims or ambitions) began to trickle into that place, correct? After all, there was a First and a Second Temple in Jerusalem and various Jewish nations, sometimes free and sometimes dominated by other nations such as Rome, before any "Arab" thought to lay claim to territories there, right?

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Once agaian I am left wondering why anyone who knocks Israel doesnt go after the multiple Arab countries who could easily give up a chunk of dirt for their poor Palestinian brothers. Hmmm, I wonder why that hasn't happened.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

The Arab countries do want the palestinians to have their own land - it just happens to be in Israeli occupied land.

You don't have to refer to the OP as a shit disturber and belittle the subject, but feel free to express you thoughts on the topic.

The only way I would know if I like your comments is to read them first.

I would refer to your post as dumb, but that would be rude and disrespectful.

Once agaian I am left wondering why anyone who knocks Israel doesnt go after the multiple Arab countries who could easily give up a chunk of dirt for their poor Palestinian brothers.


This is one point that always confuses me too. Even if it's not land but financial assistance to the Palestinian people. America is often criticized for a disproportionate amount of aid to Palestine vs. Israel but why don't other countries, specifically the Arab ones contribute more?

The reason is simple, they use Palestine to create trouble with Israel because they don't want to be seen as doing it themselves. Syria and Iran use their proxies in Lebanon (Hamas) to continue fighting Israel so Israel doesn't retaliate against them. Assad (the father) did this for years. Every time there was a hint of peace offerings coming from Palestine, he got his proxies to lobby a few more bombs to get Israel away from the negotiating table. A few times he would then offer to be the mediator despite him causing the fighting. He wanted to be seen as an elder statesman and to disguise the true intent of Syria. His real motive was to be seen as strong and anti-Israel but willing to work for peace to gain support for his minority sect in Syria.

That is why I often stand up for Palestine itself. Not because I am anti-Israel but because it is outside forces controlled by Syria and Iran that have a long history of keeping this fighting going. Palestine is not blameless and neither is Israel but left on their own, I believe, maybe naively, that they could find a way to have peace.

That's because none of them have any love for their poor fellow Arab brothers, and basically look at them as gypsies of a sort. Better to keep 'em penned up in camps, they say, than to let them run around free. Besides, if they dismantled those refugee camps -- which are in direct contravention of established UN rules for the length of time such camps are supposed to exist -- where would the photo opportunities of poor, oppressed Palestinians be? In truth, those Arab countries could give a damn less about the Palestinians because nobody, unfortunately, actually cares about them. They're just a useful tool with which to bludgeon Israel and the West, is all.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israeli policies. Israeli society is embroiled in this same debate regarding how best to deal with the formation of an inevitable Palestinian state. But trying to go back in history to determine culpability IMO is an exercise in futility. At this point we must deal with the existing realities and work from there. To go back in history would be comparable to revisiting our own relationship with the indigenous inhabitants of North America. Ancient Jews may have relied on God's promise of a home land, but Manifest Destiny promoted a similar theme and I doubt that many Americans would advocate that we revisit that issue and base some form of land redistribution on historical levels of culpability.

Did you notice how the local bigot YaHey, deftly danced around your comments.

My mother was the same way. She just had a blind spot about Jews and about Israel. But whenever she'd have a legal problem and needed a lawyer, she'd tell me to find her "a good Jewish one" because "nobody can out-Jew another Jew like a Jew" or some such other silliness. There are lots of people with such attitudes, and casual anti-Semitism is actually almost a requirement for entry into the precincts of the far Left these days. I saw some of the most idiotic and vile anti-Jewish signs at more than a few of those Occupy rallies that the Dems and Obama were so effusive in praising last year, for example, though such bigotry, believe me, can be found most anywhere. They're just the most visible practitioners of anti-Semitism lately.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

To be historically accurate, muslims have ruled the land of Israel for a LOT longer that jews have.

Well, one thing is absolutely certain: Muslims didn't rule that land prior to 570 A. D.. In fact, Muslims didn't even exist before then, since the founder of the religion had not yet been born.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

He conflates his weak knowledge of Arab genesis with the origins of Islam all the time. No surprise there. I've found most of the pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab camp, when it comes to the complicated history Jews and Arabs share in the Middle East, to be hugely Procrustean, for the most part. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Yes, it was pretty obvious that he was confusing Arabs with Muslims, despite the fact that neither set of people is a subset of the other. Similarly, he also confuses Jews with Israelis. YaHey isn't exactly a paragon of clear thinking.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

It's kind of like saying that Israel has always been Jewish land.

It's also kinda like saying that Israel has always been Arab land, too, gringo. Actually, if we wanted to be really fair, we'd run the Jews and the Arabs outta there and make it a new British colony or a province for France, but we ain't fair, especially when it comes to the Jews, the vast majority of whom were ready to live in and amongst and side-by-side the Arabs in 1948. Of course, the Arab Legion (with many of the most important units led by British officers) fell in on the Jews and Israel back then and made their big play, while also promising those local Arabs that listened to the foolish advice of Legion military and political leaders that they'd receive back lands ten-times in size of those they'd originally held if they only would leave those lands for awhile. Well, we know how that worked out, now don't we?

I mean, c'mon: How many billions of dollars have been thrown at Gaza and the West Bank by gullible Western governments (who give far, far more -- by contrast -- than do the Arab states)? And how are most of those folks still living there? In squalor, much of it due to outright corruption (that old idiot Arafat himself personally stole billions) and refusing to come to some sort of peace that would've resulted in both Israel and the PA benefiting greatly. Sure, the Israelis haven't been completely without fault, but if you want to tote up suicide bombings, rocket attacks and other metrics of violence and double-dealing, we've got the Palestinians (the two words that immediately come to my mind, unfortunately, when I consider their own peace-making efforts, are "bloodthirsty" and "treacherous") far out in front in terms of the blame game right now.

Face it, sir: There's NO HOPE for a peace in that region as long as the Arabs refuse to accept a Jewish state in their midst, and they never will, because the Palestinians are too useful an object to too many Arab and Muslim states, when it comes to using them as leverage to further the ends of those same states, for them to ever be allowed to prevail in the end.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I can't wait for the Romans to reclaim nearly all of Europe, part of Africa and part of Asia. And Athens could do the same. That would fix
their economies pretty quickly. Then the Achaemenid will claim Iran, Iraq, a big chunk of Asia, part of Europe, Turkey, part of Egypt...
And if Ulan Bator decides, they could claim a fair bit too. Then indian tribes will kick us all out from the US and Canada...

Damn...people are stupid.

I told you before, mon frere: "Manifest Destiny" explains it all. Those folks in the Middle East, though, tote up grievance after grievance and nurse them like little acorns until they grow into mighty oaks. There's no hope of solving those problems, at least in this millennium. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Didn't they want to reclaim the Egyptian desert they wandered on for 40 years?

They did. It was called "The Sinai Peninsula," but they gave that back, too, in exchange for peace with their neighbors. Pity that most of them (Sadat/Mubarak Egypt excluded, of course) still weren't satisfied.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I think they gave it back because it probably reminded them of less happy times.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight! At any rate, they voluntarily gave it back when Anwar Sadat and Egypt entered into a peace agreement with them. Looks like Egypt under the new folks, though, is going to renege on the agreement soon enough, which is typical of Arab double-dealing over there in the Middle East but that ain't gonna change anytime soon, which is something the Israelis understand readily enough.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

They voluntarily gave up the Sinai when we agreed to give them billion$ to accept the peace. We paid them off amigo.

And we didn't do the same for the Egyptians? A little context is in order, compadre. Maybe all those folks are waiting for is us Yanks to give 'em all a little baksheesh and then they'll go away and leave all of us alone.

At any rate, the Israelis are putting a lotta faith in our good offices, vis a vis their own security, wouldn't you say? Hopefully, their faith isn't misplaced.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Make sure to avoid my posts on why the elections process is crappy, and how I hate corporate contributions to the candidates, but I'm gonna warn you now, DON'T open my classified post where I am selling DT Swiss mountain bike wheels, those wheels "MIGHT" have been made in Switzerland; I am not sure since I never cared, but wouldn't you know it Switzerland has been harboring funds that may be connected to money laundering and tax evasion!! I don't want you to come to Slowtwitch and feel bad about what you might read. I am so sorry!