Based on the intolerance of the beliefs he spouts, how about ImperialWizardBrian286?

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

Come on...give him some credit. He is a hard line Catholic and stands firm in his faith...I am a hard line hetrosexual and stand just as firm (heh...firm) in my sexual beliefs. I for one at this point can only see that he is a stand up guy who is firm in his views of god and life - I respect that. You dont have to agree with him, but he is only wrong in your eyes (and a few million others).

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Based on the intolerance of the beliefs he spouts, how about ImperialWizardBrian286?

So if he disagrees with you, his beliefs are intolerant, huh?

And such irony- Imperial Wizard, huh? It might have escaped your attention, but Catholics were one of the KKK's big targets. If there's anyone in here who's following in their footsteps, it ain't Brian.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

While I was being slightly glib, the fact remains that the inolerance & prejudice that the Catholic church shows toward gays is directly in line with the "preachings" of the KKK.

And while I'm no expert on the KKK, I thought their main religious targets were Jews?

And yes, the Catholic Church's doctrine against women and homosexuals lead to intolerant beliefs.

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

And while I'm no expert on the KKK, Get out!

I thought their main religious targets were Jews? The three main targets of the KKK were Blacks, Jews, and Catholics.

the Catholic Church's doctrine against women and homosexuals lead to intolerant beliefs.

There is no Catholic doctrine against women. There's not even any doctrine against homosexuals- only against homosexual behavior. And no, it doesn't lead to "intolerant" beliefs, unless you just consider disagreement with your position "intolerance." Funny how that works.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

The three main targets of the KKK were Blacks, Jews, and Catholics. What was the rational for attacking Catholics (and what religion did the KKK subscribe to?)?

There is no Catholic doctrine against women. Where to start on this one? Lets just go for the top--no women priests. Are they not equal?

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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

"There's not even any doctrine against homosexuals- only against homosexual behavior"

There is Catholic language (I'm not sure what would constitute "doctrine") against homsexuality, not just the physical act, but the inclination itself.

"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed to those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not"

That quote was written, by the way, by then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI in the "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" of 1986.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

What was the rational for attacking Catholics (and what religion did the KKK subscribe to?)?

Uh- does it matter?

no women priests. Are they not equal?

Because men and women aren't the same doesn't mean they're not equal. No male mothers- biological evidence of the inferiority of men? Hardly.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"and what religion did the KKK subscribe to?"

Most KKK claim to be Protestants. Don't make the mistake that many do of thinking "Catholic" and "Christian" mean the same thing.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

"No male mothers- biological evidence of the inferiority of men? Hardly."

Well now you just sound silly. The reason there aren't "male mothers" isn't because the Church is preventing it, as is the case with female clergy.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

There is Catholic language (I'm not sure what would constitute "doctrine") against homsexuality, not just the physical act, but the inclination itself.

Do tell.

I fail to see how you think that's evidence of intolerance of homosexuality. It says, in effect, that the tendency towards homosexuality is an objective disorder. Which it is. Just like every other tendency to sin is an objective disorder. It doesn't say that people who merely have the tendency towards homosexuality are sinful or evil, even if they don't practice homosexuality. It says, basically, that special care should be taken with those who have the inclination, so that they don't fall into actual sin.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

In one of those moods today, huh commodore?

OK, I'll spell it out for you. The Church says that there are real differences between men and women, which is a pretty unremarkable statement. Just as pregnancy isn't suitable for the male nature, the priesthood is not suitable for the feminine nature. It doesn't make women of any less value.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

"I fail to see how you think that's evidence of intolerance of homosexuality"

How do you fail in that? The letter pretty clearly says that homosexuality is an immoral condition. It may not be a mandate to go stomp homos, but it certainly isn't a statement of tolerance and acceptance. But if that isn't enough for you, how about pope John Paull II in his 2005 book Memory and Identity,when he labeled homosexuality an “ideology of evil,” saying when discussing gay marriage that, “It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man.”

Not particularly tolerant. The argument that the church doesn't like homosexuality, but is tolerant towards homosexuals is just crap. Regardless of whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a choice or genetic or whatever, you have to acknowledge that gays think it's not a choice, and that calling their inclinations and their movement an "ideology of evil" isn't particularly tolerant.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

"In one of those moods today, huh commodore?"

I get into those moods when people make ridiculous statements.

"Just as pregnancy isn't suitable for the male nature, the priesthood is not suitable for the feminine nature. It doesn't make women of any less value"

Except that pregnancy is a function of having ovaries and a uterus, whereas being clergy is a matter of deciding that because Jesus only had male apostles, the clergy should only be male. The Church, as far as I know, doesn't point to any physical limitations which prevent women from being competent priests.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Ok, usually I'll just lurk on these threads, but this one definitely has caught my interest. WTF are you talking about??? What kind of analogy is that? What about the feminine nature is not suitable for priesthood?

Please, you said you would spell it out, so start s-p-e-l-l-i-n-g.

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

Okay, I'll bite. I know men are not suited for pregnancy as a biological fact. I also know that there are real differences between men and women, most of which are biological, but some of which (generalizing, of course) are tempramental (sp??). But what is it the church says about the feminine nature that would make it unsuitable for priesthood?

By the way, I'm just curious. I really don't have the emotional or intellectual fortitude to be drawn into a Slowtwitch religious debate.

By what possible logic could you conclude the Catholic Church has intolerance toward gays? For all we know the Pope is gay. I would not be surprised if a large percentage of Catholic priests in this country are gay.

The Church teaches that sex outside of marriage is morally unacceptable. The Church teaches that marriage is only between a man and a woman. The Church has no issues with homosexuality at all, only with homosexual acts.

Apparently you are as well informed about the Catholic Church as you are about the KKK. You might want to consider what it is in your life that causes you to be so threatened by the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Jesus taught us to love our neighbor as ourselves. He didn't carve out any exceptions.

Isn't that akin to saying, I have no issues with triathletes, just those who choose to swim, bike and run.

That argument is beyond absurd!!!

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

"Apparently you are as well informed about the Catholic Church as you are about the KKK. "


Art, maybe you need to read some of the above posts before you tell others they don't know what they're talking about. the Church absolutely has issues with homosexuality itself, not just the acts.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

The letter pretty clearly says that homosexuality is an immoral condition.

It says nothing of the sort. It says the inclination to it is objectively a disorder.

Just as the inclination towards alcoholism is an objective disorder. Just like the inclination towards violence is an objective disorder. Just like the inclination towards any particular sin is an objective disorder. Everyone has some objective disorder or another- we all have our own weaknesses, our own particular vices that we struggle against. Merely saying that we have to struggle to avoid whatever sin we incline to doesn't mean we're in an immoral condition.

how about pope John Paull II in his 2005 book Memory and Identity,when he labeled homosexuality an “ideology of evil,”

How about it? I don't think he said homosexuality itself is "an ideology of evil," just because of the obvious fact that homosexuality isn't an ideology at all. Clearly, what he was talking about was the ideology that homosexuality is A-OK.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I know men are not suited for pregnancy as a biological fact. I also know that there are real differences between men and women, most of which are biological, but some of which (generalizing, of course) are tempramental

OK, so we can agree that there are real differences between men and women in the natural order, and I hope we can agree that those differences, or acknowledging those differences, don't make one gender inferior to the other. Now let's assume a supernatural order, which is what we're talking about when we're talking about the priesthood. What reason is there to think that there aren't differences between the genders supernaturally, as well as naturally? And what reason is there to assert that these supernatural differences make one gender less than the other?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Your statement is meaningless. Of course the Church has "issues" with homosexuality. It has "issues" with heterosexuality as well. The Church has "issues" with most major areas of human disagreement.

Try again.

the Church absolutely has issues with homosexuality itself, not just the acts.

The Church doesn't have any more issues with someone's homosexuality than it has with my laziness.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

It is not absurd at all. It is perfectly logical and consistent. You simply disagree with it.

If the Church considered swimming, biking and running to be immoral, it would have no intolerance to triathletes whatever, it would frown on those to the extent that they acted on their inclinations.

Once again, love your neighbor. No exceptions.