Drill, baby, drill.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"The Quakers and Shakers were left behind a LONG time ago"

some might say there's always been a vestige of primitive christianity: the montanists, hussites, lollards, and on down to the quakers and to today. fox's book of martyrs doesn't detail the putting to death of christians by gentiles. rather, the putting to death of christians by other christians. the true christian, according to this theology, is never distinct from the pagan, but from the false christian. if you're a christian, and as i read the new testament, you don't want to hear, when you die, "what seduced you, having started off so well?" be on the right side of that calculus ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think one of the underlying issues is HOW these changes including economic opportunities will come to be.

Will they be a result of market forces or will they be a result governmental authority?

There will always be uncertainties and winners and losers in the world's markets. The trick is to position ourselves so that we are poised to lead and therefore to maintain our preeminence. Right now, to some extent because of our paralyzed political system and polarized society, we are in danger of falling further and further behind in the race to develop the new technologies needed to protect our position of influence. That's the irony of it all. What is seen by some as an attempt to dismantle a super power's status is in effect just the opposite. It is a call for a vision that will help to assure that we hold onto our coveted position of dominance.

That's another one of the big problems. There is no way the necessary changes are going to come about in a timely fashion if left totally to the design of market forces. (Too many powerful market forces fighting for survival). There needs to be some government involvement and as soon as that is mentioned . . . . the free marketers scream bloody murder. With the political "atmosphere" as it is (no pun intended) compromise is unlikely and paralysis results.

absolutely
just do it properly!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

There is no way the necessary changes are going to come about in a timely fashion if left totally to the design of market forces.

I realize this may be "your opinion" and that's fine. However, I think this is the crux of the whole issue. The people who deny climate change are doing do because they believe acceptance of man caused climate change will necessitate governmental action. (And they don't want that.)

I'm not so sure that government action necessarily follows the acceptance of man-made climate change. Suppose climate change is man-made, but its not so drastic that change needs to be forced on society through governmental action. Suppose the change exists, but it is so small and insignificant an appropriate response is "Eh, so what?"

In other words, I don't think proving climate change is man made is enough. I think the big deal is proving that it warrants a particular response. And I don't think that is something that can be PROVED. I think that is an opinion.

Effective govt run policies and procedures can be amazingly effective. Ever wonder why you dont have to wory about malaria in the u.s.?
Some problems are just too large and affect too many people to be left to the free market. Thats copounded if a large percentage of the market runs around denying there is a problem.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

"I don't think proving climate change is man made is enough. I think the big deal is proving that it warrants a particular response. And I don't think that is something that can be PROVED. I think that is an opinion."

this was exactly the point taken by south africa's president thabo mbeki in the 1990s, which caused his country to tarry in the face of an AIDS epidemic that swept his country over the next decade.

this is exactly ron paul's foreign policy argument. even if an overwhelming percent of all the CIA, state department and think tank experts are certain that a specific and credible threat exists to the U.S. that demands a response of some sort - and this sort of agreement does exist in theater after theater around the world - ron paul is unconvinced. there is no real proof. not enough for him. it is simply the opinion of these experts, which he is making an emotional decision to discard.

making absolute proof - not just to the large majority of the experts' satisfaction, but to your own satisfaction - is a foolish way to run not only a government, or a company, but your own life.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Last I checked, cigarettes are still widely available.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Duffy wrote:

Quote:

Remember that the tobacco industry effectively delayed government action against them on the same basis = you can't prove the link between tobacco and forms of cancer and heart disease.

Last I checked, cigarettes are still widely available.

Point being . . . . . fossil fuels will not disappear either.

But steps can be taken to discourage the unlimited discharge of CO2 into the atmosphere limiting their impact. And at the same time, the government and free market can work together encouraging the development of clean, safe alternatives that benefit the environment and everyone living on the planet.

Point being... Government will come to rely on carbon tax $$$ the same way it relies on tobacco tax $$$. You are aware that the government (both federal and state (CA)) make more money per pack of smokes than do tobacco companies. Government makes money per gallon of fuel we put in our cars than the guy who owns the gas station. Do you think government wants these things to go away? Please.

CARB (California Air Resource Board) and SCAQMD are the biggest impediment to emission free automobiles in this country, despite their stated goals. No gas stations, no AQMD, no $300,000 annual salary.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Maybe, but how much does the govt lose in health care costs treating smoking caused diseases?

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

It's already been studied. It's a net savings for the government because the smokers die before they can suck off of the social security tit.

Here's how goes in the UK...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/...gs/smoking/86599.stm

And in the USA...

http://www.usatoday.com/...-tobacco-costs_N.htm

If you ask me, I don't think the government should be paying for peoples health care in the first place. And, for the most part (as of now) they don't.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

that is an interesting claim.
what technologies are waiting in the on deck circle that would provide emissions free automobiles and how is CARB preventing their arrival?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Where exactly is that global warming in this longer look at climatology?



Or in this even longer look?


Mostly both long view show great varability in temperatures both higher and lower than current levels.

There are some things that came from a long conversation I had with someone high up the food chain at CARB that I'd be better off not being specific about.


It's not really the cars themselves. It's the infrastructure to get us away from gasoline (mainly) and diesel (collateral damage). It has to do with the permitting process of fueling stations and what is allowed and disallowed, what is encouraged and what is discouraged.

I'm mainly talking about CNG and LPG, but H2 and electric are stuck in this mess as well.

Some people are more concern with helping themselves by accomplishing a little when they could accomplish a lot, but with the price being their own obsolescence.

Think about who benefits the most from expensive regulation (and I'm talking about those who are regulated) and what their relationships are with those doing the regulating (and I'm talking about personal relationships).

I'm going to regret posting this.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Youre trying to use a graph of paleoclimatology to argue against agw? Try looking at the tiny portion of that graph where humans have had the means to make an impact. Can you even pinpoint where the industurial revolutuon took place on your graph?

akso did you read the wikipedia page you took these from? from the.text immediately preceding that graph:


Paleoclimatology has wider implications for climate change today. Scientists often consider past changes in environment and biodiversity to reflect on the current situation, and specifically the impact of climate on mass extinctions and biotic recovery. [1]

The science that you pointed to is the same science that says climate change is negatively impacted by humans.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

word

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

"Can you even pinpoint where the industurial revolutuon took place on your graph?"

I think you can see that, but i think you are missing the point, there has been plenty of variation throughout man's history You can't blame all of them on human activity.

There is nothing in your bolded area that says this supports AGW. Just that major climate changes can lead to extintions. That makes sense to me. If we have another ice age we can expect some extintions.

See now you've done it, you used data to question Veganerd's religious belief in AGW. Shame on you, these threads are meant to only be viewed and commentned on by the narrow minded, unthinking true believers.

This is so silly it hardly warrants a response but ill put it in terms you can understand.......the period of time we are discussing occurs at the very end of his graph. The graph he posted is not relevant to the discussion. We are talking about human contribution to the warming of the planet. 99% of his graph is worthless to the conversation. Pinpoint the spot on his graph where cars became common to see what im talking about.

By all means, question my position. Challenge it! Ive got zero problem with you debating the issue but at least do it in am intelligent and meaningful way. Do you have anything to add?

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Absolutely, they do. Were you under the impression that climate scientists didn't know that? Or that they are hiding it from us to spread communism around the world?

what you can't see in those graphs because of the resolution, is how rapid our current warming is. If you look closely at your second graph, you will see a tiny spike labeled "PETM" which was one of the most sudden warming events in our planets history. It was of course entirely natural, but it did have severe effects on the ecosystem nonetheless, with an extinction event and massive changes in life on the planet.

The current warming happening right now is happening even faster than the PETM did, and we are able to attribute it to non natural causes.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Still not seeing how CARB could substantively prevent electric cars from hitting the market. In fact most of the boutique car makers *start* selling only in california first as it seems to be advantageous overall for tax reasons there.

as for CNG/LPG - just as much co2 from that as oil.
wouldn't be emissions free.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter