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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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true, there isn't genetic coding for gay marriage. however, where i see a distinction(legally speaking) is that a polyamorous person can marry, obtain all the benefits of marriage(i.e. legal benefits), while still being true to their polyamorous ways(i.e. the mormon fundamentalist concept of 'spiritual wifery'). so they aren't "missing out" on anything. gays, on the other hand, don't have an option of gaining the benefits of marriage while being true to their nature.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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"however, where i see a distinction(legally speaking) is that a polyamorous person can marry, obtain all the benefits of marriage(i.e. legal benefits), while still being true to their polyamorous ways(i.e. the mormon fundamentalist concept of 'spiritual wifery'). so they aren't "missing out" on anything"

Well they are missing out on sharing a legal marriage with multiple partners, so no, they aren't getting everything.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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that's all priorities. is it about the act of marrying more than one person or simply knowing that you are sharing the same person with other folks?




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Why is the legal right to marry who you want important for gays, but the legal right to marry who you want is not important for polygamists in your eyes?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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because of the concomitant rights associated with marriage that a polygamist can receive regardless of whether he has a ceremony with his/her other mates that a gay person can't receive in any situation.

further, it can be argued that polygamists could still have legal ceremonies with other mates under the notion that it's only illegal if you get caught. can't really fool anyone when it comes to same sex marriage.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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You can live with a group of women without being married to them, right? God love them if they could get along, and you could stand all that PMS, but you could do it if everybody was willing. Doesn't that actually finesse the anti-polygamy statutes?

P.S. This Poster has not read any of the other posts in this thread.
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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i still disagree regarding the second point/question. By which I take it that you're at least convinced now of the first, that gay marriage will, in fact, lead to calls for still further modifications of how we define marriage. Yes?

i will admit that some of the hypos i raised you answered in fairly short order. i wasn't convinced regarding debt, contracts, and other forms of marital property.

I don't understand. All of the hypotheticals you raised were about debt, contracts, and marital property. And in each case, it seems pretty obvious to me that there would be no difference between a polygamous marriage and monogamous marriage. None of the issues you raised seems to present much of a problem for the legal system, since the legal system already copes adequately with the very same issues.

i do believe that the courts would be extremely bogged down with polygamy cases(unlike gay marriage, polygamy is something that, if legal, people would choose to give a try)

That's dubious. Even in cultures that have traditionally condoned polygamy, it isn't often practiced by the majority of people. In the US, where polygamy doesn't enjoy broad cultural approval as of yet, I think it's quite safe to say that a very small minority of people would seek to join a polygamous marriage- certainly not a large enough minority to "bog down" the court system, even if it were somehow more legally complicated than monogamous marriage. Which it isn't.

Any other supposedly compelling reasons why polygamy must be banned, if gay marriage should be adopted?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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where i see a distinction(legally speaking) is that a polyamorous person can marry, obtain all the benefits of marriage(i.e. legal benefits), while still being true to their polyamorous ways

Uh . . . unless you're wife "c," right? What about her rights?

Besides, legally speaking, gay partners have virtually the same benefits as a married couple in California right now. But they're still suing, aren't they? Do you support that action?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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because of the concomitant rights associated with marriage that a polygamist can receive regardless of whether he has a ceremony with his/her other mates that a gay person can't receive in any situation.

Can you run that by me again, this time in English? I need to know if it's as meritless as it sounds in high falutin' lawyer lingo.

Ah, what the heck, I'll take a stab at it as written. ;)

What marital rights does a polygamist have with his/her other spouses? None, as far as I know. They have legal rights only with one spouse.

further, it can be argued that polygamists could still have legal ceremonies with other mates under the notion that it's only illegal if you get caught.

Again, you're the lawyer here, but I think I'd advise you not to use that particular legal argument in court anytime soon.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"Well there we have it. The fountain of wisdom has come forth with the obvious question."




"I really can't give you an answer to that question that would be intelligent enough to convince you, if you were not already inclined to be convinced. My answer would involve family and children and commitment and the like. "



"If I gave that answer I would be reminded that I was a neo-Christian."

DEEEEEEAM! Come on Franke where is the love my man? I swear what ever happened I am very sorry about it. :-)



"I finally figured out what that means by the way, if anyone is interested."

What does that mean? I rank it up there with neo conservative. A snotty remark made by leftist who can't relax and see the other side.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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"because of the concomitant rights associated with marriage that a polygamist can receive regardless of whether he has a ceremony with his/her other mates that a gay person can't receive in any situation."

You're really arguing that " at least polygamists get to marry one person."
Somehow the ceremony isn't that important for the second or third spouse, but it is important for gays. It just doesn't follow.

"further, it can be argued that polygamists could still have legal ceremonies with other mates under the notion that it's only illegal if you get caught. can't really fool anyone when it comes to same sex marriage."

And now you're arguing that we don't have to make it legal because they can get away with breaking the law. You're really reaching now.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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the ceremony is more important for gays than polygamists because without it, gays get nothing.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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not if she married husband d. she might not have legal rights with mr. a.

and what about the rest of the country?




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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no, i don't think it NECESSARILY follows that legalizing gay marriage will lead to calls for polygamy other re-definitions of marriage.

where it comes down for me, at this point, is that polygamy/polyamorous behavior is a choice. a conscious decision. i see nothing to indicate that it is a genetic behavior. this presents a huge distinction for me, in that there are many things that a person might "like" to do, but laws preclude it. yes, there is a choice involved with gay marriage, but, in my opinion, the root behavior, being gay, is genetic. thus, we are denying something to them and stigmatizing gays based on behaviors over which they have no control.

you simply dismiss all legal issues associated with polygamous situations as being no more legally complicated than monogamous ones. while that is true for some of the hypothetical situations i raised, i wasn't persuaded as to all of them.

make no mistake, though, you'd never see me on the front lines of an anti-polygamy battle. if a group of consenting adults want to go that route, that's up to them. i just see reasons why there would be laws against it.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I have not read every post in this thread ... but I do find it entertaining-peculiar that homosexuals do not want any groups (polygamists in this case) to piggy-back them on this issue or to be conjoined with any other groups seeking their "civil rights" ... all the while they (homosexuals) seem to be associating or conjoining or piggy-backing the civil rights situations of the past involving persons of color.

Talk about having your cake and wanting to eat it to.

The cat's out of the bag (or the closet) and it is fairly obvious what the real issue is ... and it does not seem to have much to do with "civil rights" pertaining to marriage.

-----------------------------

This is where I put on the broken record and say that if the fdefinition of marriage is changed, do it in such a way that allows for everyone's civil rights to become fulfilled ... just don't change it so that one, very loud, but small minority group gets added to the "discriminating group".

I am looking forward to addressing and re-addressing and re-addressing and re-addressing this issue many times of the next 50 years. (<--- sarcasm)

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Calls for gay marriage have already lead to calls for other forms of marriage. How can you deny that?

I also don't understand your comment about laws against polygamy being appropriate. I had a long dialogue with a rather formidable attorney on this board who explained that such things were already baked into the Constitution. No laws were applicable since it was an equal protection issue.

I was about to suggest that you go back and read it, but I just remembered it was with you. Imagine that.

This lady is laying the same foundation for the same reasons. No, her arguments and proofs aren't fully assembled yet, but we both know they will be. All it will take is a half dozen or so activists with the right PhDs, a few bucks and some predetermined "studies" and you will have the whole package.
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious as to what could possibly lead a presumably sane and intelligent person to spend her time being a polygamy advocate or theorist. I think she needs a hobby. Someone has daddy or mommy issues, I think.

Paging Dr. Freud.
Last edited by: Big Duke Six: Mar 24, 05 7:33
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [Big Duke Six] [ In reply to ]
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I am probably stating the painfully obvious, but I suspect she already has a hobby.
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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i've seen one article that you posted discussing polygamy. even if gays are a small, vocal minority, there is no denying that gay marriage is very much in the national conscious as an issue. polygamy is not.

as for equal protection. here's how it works. equal protection means equal protection. however, if it was literally applied, then a substantial chunk of laws would go by the way-side as nearly every law discriminates against one group or another. the courts have attempted to strike a balance between permissible discrimination and impermissible. their analysis is as follows: they examine the purpose of the law and whether it is intended to discriminate against a particular group. they then decide whether such group is a "suspect class" entitled to a higher level of equal protection scrutiny. if the class is not suspect, they apply a "rational basis" test. this means, essentially, that so long as the gov't can come up with any old justification outside of pure discrimination, the law is ok. if the class is "suspect", different levels of scrutiny are applied. to date, only classifications based on gender and race have been labeled "suspect classes".

racial classifications are subject to "strict scrutiny". this means the state must have an overwhelming need for the discrimination, the discrimination is the only means of achieving this end, and the discrimination must be narrowly tailored to achieve only this end. it is a difficult standard to meet, to wit, no one has been able to satisfy its requirements.

gender classifications receive a middling level of scrutiny somewhere above rational basis but beneath strict scrutiny. for a law that differs between genders, the state needs a pretty compelling reason for the discrimination, the discrimination must be a means to achieve this end, but it doesn't have to be as narrowly tailored to achieve the end(i.e. it doesn't have to be the "least restrictive" means of achieving the end). this middle level of scrutiny makes gender discrimination based on something like intellect no good, while recognizing that there are still valid reasons for distinguishing between sexes.

now, with respect to gay marriage, the fight will be over what type of "class" gays are. my gut says it will get "suspect" status, and thus a higher level of scrutiny. as such, the state will need a pretty compelling justification to discriminate against gays. justifications based on morality and religion, which forms the basis for every justification i have seen against gay marriage, have not held up in court. if the court finds gays aren't a suspect class(which i think would be more likely if the courts decide being gay is simply a choice), then just about any old justification will do(i can't recall a situation where the court struck down a law based on a "pure" rational basis test.

the same analysis will apply to polygamy. if polygamists receive suspect class status, again, better justification is required. whether or not the court(or the court of general public--yeah, that's you vitus) will find this compelling, one CAN argue that there are secular, non-religious based justifications for precluding polygamy. for me, it's a much more open question of whether polygamists are a suspect class, and thus there is a likelihood that rational basis would apply. in which case, the rationale discussed previously would most definitely pass judicial muster.

that's how equal protection rights are determined and whether they are "baked" into the constitution.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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"The ceremony is more important for gays than polygamists because without it, gays get nothing."

Are you really telling me that it's ok to leave out polygamists because at least the've got a little bit of rights? First, that isn't accurate. they have the same potential gripe as gays. The gripe goes like this:

"We aren't allowed to marry who we want to. We aren't allowed to codify our comitted relationships."

Would it have been ok to disregard a women's rights movement by saying, "well it's more important to work on the rights of blacks, because at least women have some rights already, and blacks have none" ? Of course not. If you are going to argue that people should have the right to marry who they want, and that decision should not be based on morality, then you have to extend that argument to everyone, not just the homosexual community.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I have been thinking about this. Would Pologomy be that bad??

I know a few women who would like a second husband and a few guys who would be willing to share a woman with another man.

I also know a few women who have flat out said "I need a wife" - meaning help out around the house, shared duties of raising the kids. And there are men who would like more than one wife.

On Extreme Home Makeover TV show last week, the wife's Sister came to live with them to help out with their disabled child - she is acting as a second wife - but she is not getting any "wifely" benefits (and for the ignorant out there -- women get sexual urges as much as men - and long for sexual pleasure just like men)

In the past when Men ruled - they would "take" wives - that is bad. Women losing thier rights, etc. And it was always one man with many wives.

But if consenting adults want to get together - why not?? Two men who agree to have one wife and she agrees - why not?? Two women who want one man and all three agree - why not??

AND I bet this situation would remain rare - most of the time there still would be only one man and one woman.

PS - I see no reason why gays should not marry.

Pss - I do not think the Government should be meddling in marraige - and I do not think married people should bet any tax benefits
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for that fine summary of how the courts view these things. It all sounds very well thought out and reasonable, at least in the abstract. In practice, it probably comes up with pretty good answers most of the time.

Of course, none of what you described is in the Constitution.

The other missing piece is that nowhere in the analysis does it say that the courts should be extremely hesitant to, on a 5-4 vote, overturn democratically enacted laws, created by a coequal branch of government, supported by a large majority of the population and supported by a long tradition of existence in perfect harmony with the Constitution, all on a theory of discovering new meaning in old words that the authors certainly never intended.

The polygamists will eventually offer arguments and "proof" on equal basis to that being offered on behalf of gays today, and they will argue persuasively for inclusion in the same class and for the same rights. There will be no intellectual distinction between the two that will not be under persuasive attack.

Of course, if you just let the legislatures do their job and make their choices, life is very simple. The courts would lose power and probably invitations to Washington cocktail parties though, so we can't have that.
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Re: Pologamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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i am making no morality based judgements on polygamy. if consenting adults want to go for it, then go for it. just pointing out what i see as potential distinctions.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Well, that's a pity then. I was going to suggest we start a collection to buy her a tri bike, to give her a hobby.
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Re: Polygamy intellectual/legal foundation being laid [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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so now a 5-4 vote is less legitimate? close votes mean less? that's not how it works in our system. that's like saying "shouldn't we be hesistant to enact a bill because it was 51-49 in the senate".

ok, then, if you want to remove that analysis from the equation, that would mean that every law that is intended to discriminate against a specified group would be no good. are you honestly going to tell me that the constitution need also spell out the process by which it is to be applied? or that everything in the constitution is so self-evident that no decision making calculus is required to determine whether the constitution applies to certain issues?




f/k/a mclamb6
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