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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
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liversedge wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
liversedge wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
liversedge wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
which according to Word I started writing on March 26, 2003.

That's better.


Why?


This timeline explains why: http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/history

Mark


??


Nothing sinister here - just accuracy.

You two need to get a room...
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
I feel the measuring stick should cater to what you want to train.

A Cat 5/4 road racer has ZERO reason to ever do anything different than a 2x 8min or a single 20min. Why? Their road races are about 90min max and their crits or cyclocross races are 30-40min.

A typical roadie time trial around me is 10mi, or just a few minutes past a 20min ftp test.

Also, the bell curve of the percentage of rider types is probably heavily rated in the "club rider" and Cat 5/4 levels anyway. How is an hour ftp test going to help a club rider or Cat 5/4 racer?

Zero reason? Most 5s/4s would like to not be in the 5s/4s forever. Not sure why you would train for the minimum amount of work required. How do you expect to improve and be ready for higher categories?
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:

My idea though wasn't mine, it's in the Carmichael training book I'm reading. It pretty much says exactly what I said. Maybe bump it to 2 hours from 90min.

A man who came to prominence after doping juniors and then hitching his wagon to one of the most prolific dopers of the modern cycling era.

I'd toss that book. There are much better authorities on training than that scumbag.
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
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liversedge wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
liversedge wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
liversedge wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
which according to Word I started writing on March 26, 2003.

That's better.


Why?


This timeline explains why: http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/history

Mark


??

Nothing sinister here - just accuracy.

Well since you're so interested in the exact timeline of things, here are a few more dates for you:

10/15/2001: 1st power-based training levels proposed via wattage list
02/11/2002: Critical power model 1st brought to attention of wattage list
01/19/2003: NP, TSS, and PMC conceived
03/13/2003: NP and TSS revealed via wattage list
05/19/2003: Power profiling revealed via wattage list
08/05/2003: CyclingPeaks 1.1 incorporating NP and TSS released
11/06/2003: Quadrant analysis revealed via wattage list
11/12/2004: PMC output revealed at USA Cycling Coaching Summit
030/3/2005: Secret ‘eweTSS’ mailing list started to further develop/evaluate PMC
2005-2006: Details of PMC gradually revealed (e.g., via articles by Frank Overton in PezCycling News)
09/26/2005: 1st description of a weighting function for a training adaptation score in post to wattage list
08/16/2006: WKO+ 2.1 incorporating the PMC released
02/01/2007: 1st method for “on-the-fly” calculation of non-sustainable energy reserves revealed in blog post by Alex Simmons
10/20/2009: New model of relationship between training and performance developed
06/22/2012: New power-duration model developed
11/26/2014: 1st description of a graphical means of presenting parameters from a P-D model as a way of identifying a rider's phenotype
11/28/2013: Novel pedaling metrics developed.
12/23/2013: New individualized training levels developed
03/05/2014: New individualized interval guidelines developed

You might also find this interesting:

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/search/label/history


Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Jan 18, 18 12:11
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [aeroyoost] [ In reply to ]
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I have no interest in the training peaks testing protocols, we have the seven deadly sins that Andy Coggan penned years ago and they work well as far as I am concerned.

I just had to pop in and see how long it took before everybody started slagging each other off over FTP protocols. It was much quicker than I expected I have to say! Great read - chapeau everybody.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Oof.

Edit: Yes, it's poorly explained. The "tests" are clearly designed to be fed into WKO4 so it can generate a good mFTP estimate.

There are all sorts of issues with the article. But I call BS on this line, "but there is unanimous consent, at least among the people I coach, that they’re physically and mentally easier. "

Really? The shortest/easiest test of the 4 presented is this one:

Quote:

10 minutes at 92-95 percent of target FTP
Increase to 100 percent of target FTP for 15 minutes
10-15 minutes gradual power increase until exhaustion


That it's physically easier is a lie. It's more TSS. More IF. More peak power. More everything. That's physically harder than the 20-minute test in any metric I can think of.

And mentally easier is harder to quantify, but that sounds absolutely brutal to me. 10-15 minutes above FTP to exhaustion after doing 25 minutes at-or-near FTP? Wow, just wow.


My favorite is Progression 3:

Quote:

5 minutes at 97 percent of target FTP
Hold 100 percent of target FTP until exhaustion, 70 minutes maximum
Optional: Increase target FTP at halfway point


And his athletes prefer that to a 20-minute test? Really?

Interesting. I don't really use power anymore however the BIG difference between old and new is that (aside from being a damn slight harder) you need to pretty accurately estimate your FTP or you're in deep shit.
If you can accurately estimate, why test it.

The 20min test, broadly, means that you go out hard and hang on and if you get it right that actually means a flat power graph.

I'm not saying the 20 min test is a better indicator, but they are totally different, not even in the same country, let alone ball park.

Personally, I think if you can get the new test right, then you don't need to do it in the first place.
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [aeroyoost] [ In reply to ]
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Am I the only one who doesn't get why people are obsessed with finding ever more complex models with ever more complex and time consuming test protocols to estimate FTP that you then use to estimate training zones and race power? Sure, do a test every once in a while (once a year??) To set training zones. But then go out and race! Evaluate race performance by vs. power and adjust for next time. Each time you race your understanding of appropriate race power and execution will improve and it will be way better than what any model tells you what to do.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
why people are obsessed with finding ever more complex models


I made the same point about the protocols above. But, to be, fair, I think the point of the model is to make things simpler. It enables you to, as you say, keep a reasonable estimate of zones, just by dumping all your training and racing data into it. The model should be your bitch. Instead some people, like the author of this blog, become the model's bitch.
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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If one does the 40k test and the test estimates FTP to be significantly different to a much higher mFTP with a TTE of only 35 minutes, which is the best estimate?



Andrew Coggan wrote:
rockdude wrote:
There is always a different definition of FTP, now FTP is MLSS.

FTP is, was, and always will be a functional (i.e., power-based) measurement of the maximal metabolic steady state intensity. As such, you should think of it as an "umbrella" over various physiological markers of the same intensity, e.g., MLSS, IAT, the NIRS breakpoint, VT2, the iEMG threshold, etc.

(If this is news to anyone, then they simply haven't been paying close enough attention...for example, here is what I wrote when I introduced the concept back in 2001:

"...while LT is often defined by sports scientists as the initial non-linear increase in
lactate with increasing exercise intensity (Fig. 2), this intensity tends to be significantly below
that which coaches and athletes tend to associate, on the basis of practical experience, with the
concept of a “threshold” exercise intensity. The latter corresponds more closely to what the
sports science community has termed OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation, defined as a
blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L), but is really conceptually closest to MLSS (maximal
lactate steady state) or IAT (individual anaerobic threshold), both of which represent the highest
exercise intensity that can be maintained without a continual increase in blood lactate.

...probably the easiest and most
direct way of estimating a rider’s functional threshold power is therefore to simply measure their
average power during a ~40 km (50-70 min) TT.")

rockdude wrote:
I don't think there is any research that show that the new FTP test protocol results in ones MLSS. I feel the fact that mFTP has to be feed long efforts to be anywhere accurate is the driver for the new protocol.

The data during the first ~25 min actually have the greatest impact on mFTP.
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Re: New Physiological FTP Tests - Training Peaks Blog [Gen Secretary] [ In reply to ]
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Gen Secretary wrote:
If one does the 40k test and the test estimates FTP to be significantly different to a much higher mFTP with a TTE of only 35 minutes, which is the best estimate?

I would put more faith in the TT data.

IOW, here is the only change I would now make to my "seven deadly sins" from 2004:

1) from inspection of a ride file.
2) from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
3) from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it is done).
4) based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
5) using critical power testing and analysis mathematical modeling of mean maximal power data.
6) from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training.
7) from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of performance is performance itself).
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