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400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim"
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First thing to aggavate me in the new year! 400 cars burned by "youths". Nowhere in this article is the word Muslim used. Just one reference to them being "immigants" and their children "from north and west Africa". Ha Ha. Go ahead Europe. Just keep closing your eyes until you have to be bailed out again. And "good on ya" AP, for being so deliciously politically correct. (I know they read Slowtwich and will be awfully embarrassed by this Post.)

PARIS, France (AP) -- Rowdy revelers in France torched 425 vehicles overnight in scattered New Year's Eve unrest that has become an annual problem in troubled neighborhoods, the national police chief said Sunday. Last year, 333 cars were burned.

Police Chief Michel Gaudin also said there were no major clashes this year between youths and police overnight. Police were particularly vigilant this time because of the three weeks of rioting and arson that took place in October.

A state of emergency imposed during the rioting is still in effect, and 25,000 police were on alert for the holiday.

Police took 362 people into custody, up from 272 last year. Among police, 27 officers were injured on the job, Gaudin said. The nature of their injuries wasn't disclosed.

Car burnings have become a barometer of unrest in France. In other incidents, a small fire broke out at a school in Toulouse, in southwest France, and was quickly put out, local authorities said. In Nice on the French Riviera, firefighters were pelted with stones when they responded to an anonymous phone alert, officials said.

In the nearby Var department of southern France, youths also threw rocks at firefighters in a troubled neighborhood of La-Seine-sur-Mer, local authorities said.

Outside Paris in the suburb of Argenteuil, a small fire was reported at a cultural center.

A wave of rioting broke out Oct. 27 in a poor Paris suburb after two youths who believed police were chasing them hid in a power substation and died of electrocution.

The unrest spread throughout the country in impoverished suburban housing projects that are home to many immigrants from North and West Africa and their French-born children. At the peak, youths incinerated 1,408 vehicles in a single night.

President Jacques Chirac spoke of the unrest during his annual New Year's Eve television address and urged the French to do more to fight racism and a lack of opportunities in poor neighborhoods -- problems that fed frustrations among young rioters.

"Diversity is part of our history: It is a resource," he said. "It is an asset for our future."

Chirac also promised to do more to fight crime and violence.

In troubled French neighborhoods, dozens of vehicles are set afire on an average night. The figure has risen to around 300 on New Year's Eve in recent years, according to the Interior Ministry.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy met with police Saturday afternoon and said that officials had decided to mobilize helicopters because they played a decisive role in stopping the autumn riots.

At the time, helicopters equipped with spotlights and video cameras were used to track bands of marauding youths who sped from attack to attack in cars and on motorbikes.

"The orders I have given are very strict," Sarkozy said. "When there are delinquent acts there will be arrests. Those guilty must be accountable for their acts."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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I think they don't use "Islam" because then they would be forced to remind everyone that it is a "religion of peace", and after people read the story, they would once again be confused.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle. They really are a bunch of high school kids doing that stuff. They're "Muslim" like the Compton riots are Baptist. There is a lot of footage from the previous riots with 20-30 year old North african (Muslim) men screaming at the teenagers to stop torching the damn cars....on German TV anyway. Also... I think burning a car in France is different than the states...more like TPing a house or smashing mailboxes, or dropping rocks of overpasses...a lot more common in the culture
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I also posted this article in the "Struggle With Islam" thread. Steyn is an arch-conservative, but he makes a good point about demographics and what it's going to do to Europe in the near future vis `a vis Islam.



It’s the demography, stupid

By Mark Steyn

Most people reading this have strong stomachs, so let me lay it out as baldly as I can: Much of what we loosely call the western world will survive this century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most western European countries. There’ll probably still be a geographical area on the map marked as Italy or the Netherlands— probably—just as in Istanbul there’s still a building called St. Sophia’s Cathedral. But it’s not a cathedral; it’s merely a designation for a piece of real estate. Likewise, Italy and the Netherlands will merely be designations for real estate. The challenge for those who reckon western civilization is on balance better than the alternatives is to figure out a way to save at least some parts of the west.

One obstacle to doing that is the fact that, in the typical election campaign in your advanced industrial democracy, the political platforms of at least one party in the United States and pretty much all parties in the rest of the west are largely about what one would call the secondary impulses of society—government health care, government day care (which Canada’s thinking of introducing), government paternity leave (which Britain’s just introduced). We’ve prioritized the secondary impulse over the primary ones: national defense, family, faith, and, most basic of all, reproductive activity—“Go forth and multiply,” because if you don’t you won’t be able to afford all those secondary-impulse issues, like cradle-to-grave welfare. Americans sometimes don’t understand how far gone most of the rest of the developed world is down this path: In the Canadian and most Continental cabinets, the defense ministry is somewhere an ambitious politician passes through on his way up to important jobs like the health department. I don’t think Don Rumsfeld would regard it as a promotion if he were moved to Health & Human Services.

The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birth rate to sustain it. Post-Christian hyper-rationalism is, in the objective sense, a lot less rational than Catholicism or Mormonism. Indeed, in its reliance on immigration to ensure its future, the European Union has adopted a twenty-first-century variation on the strategy of the Shakers, who were forbidden from reproducing and thus could only increase their numbers by conversion. The problem is that secondary- impulse societies mistake their weaknesses for strengths—or, at any rate, virtues—and that’s why they’re proving so feeble at dealing with a primal force like Islam.

Speaking of which, if we are at war—and half the American people and significantly higher percentages in Britain, Canada, and Europe don’t accept that proposition—than what exactly is the war about?

We know it’s not really a “war on terror.” Nor is it, at heart, a war against Islam, or even “radical Islam.” The Muslim faith, whatever its merits for the believers, is a problematic business for the rest of us. There are many trouble spots around the world, but as a general rule, it’s easy to make an educated guess at one of the participants: Muslims vs. Jews in “Palestine,” Muslims vs. Hindus in Kashmir, Muslims vs. Christians in Africa, Muslims vs. Buddhists in Thailand, Muslims vs. Russians in the Caucasus, Muslims vs. backpacking tourists in Bali. Like the environmentalists, these guys think globally but act locally.

Yet while Islamism is the enemy, it’s not what this thing’s about. Radical Islam is an opportunist infection, like AIDS: it’s not the HIV that kills you, it’s the pneumonia you get when your body’s too weak to fight it off. When the jihadists engage with the U.S. military, they lose—as they did in Afghanistan and Iraq. If this were like World War I with those fellows in one trench and us in ours facing them over some boggy piece of terrain, it would be over very quickly. Which the smarter Islamists have figured out. They know they can never win on the battlefield, but they figure there’s an excellent chance they can drag things out until western civilization collapses in on itself and Islam inherits by default.

That’s what the war’s about: our lack of civilizational confidence. As a famous Arnold Toynbee quote puts it: “Civilizations die from suicide, not murder”—as can be seen throughout much of “the western world” right now. The progressive agenda —lavish social welfare, abortion, secularism, multiculturalism—is collectively the real suicide bomb. Take multiculturalism: the great thing about multiculturalism is that it doesn’t involve knowing anything about other cultures—the capital of Bhutan, the principal exports of Malawi, who cares? All it requires is feeling good about other cultures. It’s fundamentally a fraud, and I would argue was subliminally accepted on that basis. Most adherents to the idea that all cultures are equal don’t want to live in anything but an advanced western society: Multiculturalism means your kid has to learn some wretched native dirge for the school holiday concert instead of getting to sing “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer” or that your holistic masseuse uses techniques developed from Native American spirituality, but not that you or anyone you care about should have to live in an African or Native-American society. It’s a quintessential piece of progressive humbug.

Then September 11 happened. And bizarrely the reaction of just about every prominent western leader was to visit a mosque: President Bush did, the Prince of Wales did, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom did, the Prime Minister of Canada did… . The Premier of Ontario didn’t, and so twenty Muslim community leaders had a big summit to denounce him for failing to visit a mosque. I don’t know why he didn’t. Maybe there was a big backlog, it was mosque drivetime, prime ministers in gridlock up and down the freeway trying to get to the Sword of the Infidel-Slayer Mosque on Elm Street. But for whatever reason he couldn’t fit it into his hectic schedule. Ontario’s Citizenship Minister did show up at a mosque, but the imams took that as a great insult, like the Queen sending Fergie to open the Commonwealth Games. So the Premier of Ontario had to hold a big meeting with the aggrieved imams to apologize for not going to a mosque and, as The Toronto Star’s reported it, “to provide them with reassurance that the provincial government does not see them as the enemy.”

Anyway, the get-me-to-the-mosque-on-time fever died down, but it set the tone for our general approach to these atrocities. The old definition of a nanosecond was the gap between the traffic light changing in New York and the first honk from a car behind. The new definition is the gap between a terrorist bombing and the press release from an Islamic lobby group warning of a backlash against Muslims. In most circumstances, it would be considered appallingly bad taste to deflect attention from an actual “hate crime” by scaremongering about a purely hypothetical one. Needless to say, there is no campaign of Islamophobic hate crimes. If anything, the west is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes. A commenter on Tim Blair’s website in Australia summed it up in a note-perfect parody of a Guardian headline: “Muslim Community Leaders Warn of Backlash from Tomorrow Morning’s Terrorist Attack.” Those community leaders have the measure of us.

Radical Islam is what multiculturalism has been waiting for all along. In The Survival of Culture, I quoted the eminent British barrister Helena Kennedy, QC. Shortly after September 11, Baroness Kennedy argued on a BBC show that it was too easy to disparage “Islamic fundamentalists.” “We as western liberals too often are fundamentalist ourselves,” she complained. “We don’t look at our own fundamentalisms.”

Well, said the interviewer, what exactly would those western liberal fundamentalisms be? “One of the things that we are too ready to insist upon is that we are the tolerant people and that the intolerance is something that belongs to other countries like Islam. And I’m not sure that’s true.”

Hmm. Lady Kennedy was arguing that our tolerance of our own tolerance is making us intolerant of other people’s intolerance, which is intolerable. And, unlikely as it sounds, this has now become the highest, most rarefied form of multiculturalism. So you’re nice to gays and the Inuit? Big deal. Anyone can be tolerant of fellows like that, but tolerance of intolerance gives an even more intense frisson of pleasure to the multiculti masochists. In other words, just as the AIDS pandemic greatly facilitated societal surrender to the gay agenda, so 9/11 is greatly facilitating our surrender to the most extreme aspects of the multicultural agenda.

For example, one day in 2004, a couple of Canadians returned home, to Lester B. Pearson International Airport in Toronto. They were the son and widow of a fellow called Ahmed Said Khadr, who back on the Pakistani-Afghan frontier was known as “al-Kanadi.” Why? Because he was the highest-ranking Canadian in al Qaeda—plenty of other Canucks in al Qaeda but he was the Numero Uno. In fact, one could argue that the Khadr family is Canada’s principal contribution to the war on terror. Granted they’re on the wrong side (if you’ll forgive me being judgmental) but no can argue that they aren’t in the thick of things. One of Mr. Khadr’s sons was captured in Afghanistan after killing a U.S. Special Forces medic. Another was captured and held at Guantanamo. A third blew himself up while killing a Canadian soldier in Kabul. Pa Khadr himself died in an al Qaeda shoot-out with Pakistani forces in early 2004. And they say we Canadians aren’t doing our bit in this war!

In the course of the fatal shoot-out of al-Kanadi, his youngest son was paralyzed. And, not unreasonably, Junior didn’t fancy a prison hospital in Peshawar. So Mrs. Khadr and her boy returned to Toronto so he could enjoy the benefits of Ontario government healthcare. “I’m Canadian, and I’m not begging for my rights,” declared the widow Khadr. “I’m demanding my rights.”

As they always say, treason’s hard to prove in court, but given the circumstances of Mr. Khadr’s death it seems clear that not only was he providing “aid and comfort to the Queen’s enemies” but that he was, in fact, the Queen’s enemy. The Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, the Royal 22nd Regiment, and other Canucks have been participating in Afghanistan, on one side of the conflict, and the Khadr family had been over there participating on the other side. Nonetheless, the Prime Minister of Canada thought Boy Khadr’s claims on the public health system was an excellent opportunity to demonstrate his own deep personal commitment to “diversity.” Asked about the Khadrs’ return to Toronto, he said, “I believe that once you are a Canadian citizen, you have the right to your own views and to disagree.”

That’s the wonderful thing about multiculturalism: you can choose which side of the war you want to fight on. When the draft card arrives, just tick “home team” or “enemy,” according to taste. The Canadian Prime Minister is a typical late-stage western politician: He could have said, well, these are contemptible people and I know many of us are disgusted at the idea of our tax dollars being used to provide health care for a man whose Canadian citizenship is no more than a flag of convenience, but unfortunately that’s the law and, while we can try to tighten it, it looks like this lowlife’s got away with it. Instead, his reflex instinct was to proclaim this as a wholehearted demonstration of the virtues of the multicultural state. Like many enlightened western leaders, the Canadian Prime Minister will be congratulating himself on his boundless tolerance even as the forces of intolerance consume him.

That, by the way, is the one point of similarity between the jihad and conventional terrorist movements like the IRA or ETA. Terror groups persist because of a lack of confidence on the part of their targets: the IRA, for example, calculated correctly that the British had the capability to smash them totally but not the will. So they knew that while they could never win militarily, they also could never be defeated. The Islamists have figured similarly. The only difference is that most terrorist wars are highly localized. We now have the first truly global terrorist insurgency because the Islamists view the whole world the way the IRA view the bogs of Fermanagh: they want it and they’ve calculated that our entire civilization lacks the will to see them off.

We spend a lot of time at The New Criterion attacking the elites and we’re right to do so. The commanding heights of the culture have behaved disgracefully for the last several decades. But, if it were just a problem with the elites, it wouldn’t be that serious: the mob could rise up and hang ’em from lampposts—a scenario that’s not unlikely in certain Continental countries. But the problem now goes way beyond the ruling establishment. The annexation by government of most of the key responsibilities of life—child-raising, taking care of your elderly parents—has profoundly changed the relationship between the citizen and the state. At some point—I would say socialized health care is a good marker—you cross a line, and it’s very hard then to persuade a citizenry enjoying that much government largesse to cross back. In National Review recently, I took issue with that line Gerald Ford always uses to ingratiate himself with conservative audiences: “A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.” Actually, you run into trouble long before that point: A government big enough to give you everything you want still isn’t big enough to get you to give anything back. That’s what the French and German political classes are discovering.

Go back to that list of local conflicts I mentioned. The jihad has held out a long time against very tough enemies. If you’re not shy about taking on the Israelis, the Russians, the Indians, and the Nigerians, why wouldn’t you fancy your chances against the Belgians and Danes and New Zealanders?

So the jihadists are for the most part doing no more than giving us a prod in the rear as we sleepwalk to the cliff. When I say “sleepwalk,” it’s not because we’re a blasé culture. On the contrary, one of the clearest signs of our decline is the way we expend so much energy worrying about the wrong things. If you’ve read Jared Diamond’s bestselling book Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, you’ll know it goes into a lot of detail about Easter Island going belly up because they chopped down all their trees. Apparently that’s why they’re not a G8 member or on the UN Security Council. Same with the Greenlanders and the Mayans and Diamond’s other curious choices of “societies.” Indeed, as the author sees it, pretty much every society collapses because it chops down its trees.

Poor old Diamond can’t see the forest because of his obsession with the trees. (Russia’s collapsing even as it’s undergoing reforestation.) One way “societies choose to fail or succeed” is by choosing what to worry about. The western world has delivered more wealth and more comfort to more of its citizens than any other civilization in history, and in return we’ve developed a great cult of worrying. You know the classics of the genre: In 1968, in his bestselling book The Population Bomb, the eminent scientist Paul Ehrlich declared: “In the 1970s the world will undergo famines—hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death.” In 1972, in their landmark study The Limits to Growth, the Club of Rome announced that the world would run out of gold by 1981, of mercury by 1985, tin by 1987, zinc by 1990, petroleum by 1992, and copper, lead, and gas by 1993.

None of these things happened. In fact, quite the opposite is happening. We’re pretty much awash in resources, but we’re running out of people—the one truly indispensable resource, without which none of the others matter. Russia’s the most obvious example: it’s the largest country on earth, it’s full of natural resources, and yet it’s dying—its population is falling calamitously.

The default mode of our elites is that anything that happens—from terrorism to tsunamis—can be understood only as deriving from the perniciousness of western civilization. As Jean-François Revel wrote, “Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself.”

And even though none of the prognostications of the eco-doom blockbusters of the 1970s came to pass, all that means is that thirty years on, the end of the world has to be rescheduled. The amended estimated time of arrival is now 2032. That’s to say, in 2002, the United Nations Global Environmental Outlook predicted “the destruction of 70 percent of the natural world in thirty years, mass extinction of species… . More than half the world will be afflicted by water shortages, with 95 percent of people in the Middle East with severe problems … 25 percent of all species of mammals and 10 percent of birds will be extinct …”

Etc., etc., for 450 pages. Or to cut to the chase, as The Guardian headlined it, “Unless We Change Our Ways, The World Faces Disaster.”

Well, here’s my prediction for 2032: unless we change our ways the world faces a future … where the environment will look pretty darn good. If you’re a tree or a rock, you’ll be living in clover. It’s the Italians and the Swedes who’ll be facing extinction and the loss of their natural habitat.

There will be no environmental doomsday. Oil, carbon dioxide emissions, deforestation: none of these things is worth worrying about. What’s worrying is that we spend so much time worrying about things that aren’t worth worrying about that we don’t worry about the things we should be worrying about. For thirty years, we’ve had endless wake-up calls for things that aren’t worth waking up for. But for the very real, remorseless shifts in our society—the ones truly jeopardizing our future—we’re sound asleep. The world is changing dramatically right now and hysterical experts twitter about a hypothetical decrease in the Antarctic krill that might conceivably possibly happen so far down the road there’s unlikely to be any Italian or Japanese enviro-worriers left alive to be devastated by it.

In a globalized economy, the environmentalists want us to worry about First World capitalism imposing its ways on bucolic, pastoral, primitive Third World backwaters. Yet, insofar as “globalization” is a threat, the real danger is precisely the opposite—that the peculiarities of the backwaters can leap instantly to the First World. Pigs are valued assets and sleep in the living room in rural China—and next thing you know an unknown respiratory disease is killing people in Toronto, just because someone got on a plane. That’s the way to look at Islamism: we fret about McDonald’s and Disney, but the big globalization success story is the way the Saudis have taken what was eighty years ago a severe but obscure and unimportant strain of Islam practiced by Bedouins of no fixed abode and successfully exported it to the heart of Copenhagen, Rotterdam, Manchester, Buffalo …

What’s the better bet? A globalization that exports cheeseburgers and pop songs or a globalization that exports the fiercest aspects of its culture? When it comes to forecasting the future, the birth rate is the nearest thing to hard numbers. If only a million babies are born in 2006, it’s hard to have two million adults enter the workforce in 2026 (or 2033, or 2037, or whenever they get around to finishing their Anger Management and Queer Studies degrees). And the hard data on babies around the western world is that they’re running out a lot faster than the oil is. “Replacement” fertility rate—i.e., the number you need for merely a stable population, not getting any bigger, not getting any smaller—is 2.1 babies per woman. Some countries are well above that: the global fertility leader, Somalia, is 6.91, Niger 6.83, Afghanistan 6.78, Yemen 6.75. Notice what those nations have in common?

Scroll way down to the bottom of the Hot One Hundred top breeders and you’ll eventually find the United States, hovering just at replacement rate with 2.07 births per woman. Ireland is 1.87, New Zealand 1.79, Australia 1.76. But Canada’s fertility rate is down to 1.5, well below replacement rate; Germany and Austria are at 1.3, the brink of the death spiral; Russia and Italy are at 1.2; Spain 1.1, about half replacement rate. That’s to say, Spain’s population is halving every generation. By 2050, Italy’s population will have fallen by 22 percent, Bulgaria’s by 36 percent, Estonia’s by 52 percent. In America, demographic trends suggest that the blue states ought to apply for honorary membership of the EU: in the 2004 election, John Kerry won the sixteen with the lowest birth rates; George W. Bush took twenty-five of the twenty-six states with the highest. By 2050, there will be 100 million fewer Europeans, 100 million more Americans—and mostly red-state Americans.

As fertility shrivels, societies get older—and Japan and much of Europe are set to get older than any functioning societies have ever been. And we know what comes after old age. These countries are going out of business—unless they can find the will to change their ways. Is that likely? I don’t think so. If you look at European election results—most recently in Germany—it’s hard not to conclude that, while voters are unhappy with their political establishments, they’re unhappy mainly because they resent being asked to reconsider their government benefits and, no matter how unaffordable they may be a generation down the road, they have no intention of seriously reconsidering them. The Scottish executive recently backed down from a proposal to raise the retirement age of Scottish public workers. It’s presently sixty, which is nice but unaffordable. But the reaction of the average Scots worker is that that’s somebody else’s problem. The average German worker now puts in 22 percent fewer hours per year than his American counterpart, and no politician who wishes to remain electorally viable will propose closing the gap in any meaningful way.

This isn’t a deep-rooted cultural difference between the Old World and the New. It dates back all the way to, oh, the 1970s. If one wanted to allocate blame, one could argue that it’s a product of the U.S. military presence, the American security guarantee that liberated European budgets: instead of having to spend money on guns, they could concentrate on butter, and buttering up the voters. If Washington’s problem with Europe is that these are not serious allies, well, whose fault is that? Who, in the years after the Second World War, created NATO as a post-modern military alliance? The “free world,” as the Americans called it, was a free ride for everyone else. And having been absolved from the primal responsibilities of nationhood, it’s hardly surprising that European nations have little wish to re-shoulder them. In essence, the lavish levels of public health care on the Continent are subsidized by the American taxpayer. And this long-term softening of large sections of the west makes them ill-suited to resisting a primal force like Islam.

There is no “population bomb.” There never was. Birth rates are declining all over the world—eventually every couple on the planet may decide to opt for the western yuppie model of one designer baby at the age of thirty-nine. But demographics is a game of last man standing. The groups that succumb to demographic apathy last will have a huge advantage. Even in 1968 Paul Ehrlich and his ilk should have understood that their so-called “population explosion” was really a massive population adjustment. Of the increase in global population between 1970 and 2000, the developed world accounted for under 9 percent of it, while the Muslim world accounted for 26 percent of the increase. Between 1970 and 2000, the developed world declined from just under 30 percent of the world’s population to just over 20 percent, the Muslim nations increased from about 15 percent to 20 percent.

1970 doesn’t seem that long ago. If you’re the age many of the chaps running the western world today are wont to be, your pants are narrower than they were back then and your hair’s less groovy, but the landscape of your life—the look of your house, the lay-out of your car, the shape of your kitchen appliances, the brand names of the stuff in the fridge—isn’t significantly different. Aside from the Internet and the cellphone and the CD, everything in your world seems pretty much the same but slightly modified.

And yet the world is utterly altered. Just to recap those bald statistics: In 1970, the developed world had twice as big a share of the global population as the Muslim world: 30 percent to 15 percent. By 2000, they were the same: each had about 20 percent.

And by 2020?

So the world’s people are a lot more Islamic than they were back then and a lot less “western.” Europe is significantly more Islamic, having taken in during that period some 20 million Muslims (officially)—or the equivalents of the populations of four European Union countries (Ireland, Belgium, Denmark, and Estonia). Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the west: in the UK, more Muslims than Christians attend religious services each week.

Can these trends continue for another thirty years without having consequences? Europe by the end of this century will be a continent after the neutron bomb: the grand buildings will still be standing but the people who built them will be gone. We are living through a remarkable period: the self-extinction of the races who, for good or ill, shaped the modern world.

What will Europe be like at the end of this process? Who knows? On the one hand, there’s something to be said for the notion that America will find an Islamified Europe more straightforward to deal with than Monsieur Chirac, Herr Schröder, and Co. On the other hand, given Europe’s track record, getting there could be very bloody. But either way this is the real battlefield. The al Qaeda nutters can never find enough suicidal pilots to fly enough planes into enough skyscrapers to topple America. But, unlike us, the Islamists think long-term, and, given their demographic advantage in Europe and the tone of the emerging Muslim lobby groups there, much of what they’re flying planes into buildings for they’re likely to wind up with just by waiting a few more years. The skyscrapers will be theirs; why knock ’em over?

The latter half of the decline and fall of great civilizations follows a familiar pattern: affluence, softness, decadence, extinction. You don’t notice yourself slipping through those stages because usually there’s a seductive pol on hand to provide the age with a sly, self-deluding slogan—like Bill Clinton’s “It’s about the future of all our children.” We on the right spent the 1990s gleefully mocking Clinton’s tedious invocation, drizzled like syrup over everything from the Kosovo war to highway appropriations. But most of the rest of the west can’t even steal his lame bromides: A society that has no children has no future.

Permanence is the illusion of every age. In 1913, no one thought the Russian, Austrian, German, and Turkish empires would be gone within half a decade. Seventy years on, all those fellows who dismissed Reagan as an “amiable dunce” (in Clark Clifford’s phrase) assured us the Soviet Union was likewise here to stay. The CIA analysts’ position was that East Germany was the ninth biggest economic power in the world. In 1987 there was no rash of experts predicting the imminent fall of the Berlin Wall, the Warsaw Pact, and the USSR itself.

Yet, even by the minimal standards of these wretched precedents, so-called “post-Christian” civilizations—as a prominent EU official described his continent to me—are more prone than traditional societies to mistake the present tense for a permanent feature. Religious cultures have a much greater sense of both past and future, as we did a century ago, when we spoke of death as joining “the great majority” in “the unseen world.” But if secularism’s starting point is that this is all there is, it’s no surprise that, consciously or not, they invest the here and now with far greater powers of endurance than it’s ever had. The idea that progressive Euro-welfarism is the permanent resting place of human development was always foolish; we now know that it’s suicidally so.

To avoid collapse, European nations will need to take in immigrants at a rate no stable society has ever attempted. The CIA is predicting the EU will collapse by 2020. Given that the CIA’s got pretty much everything wrong for half a century, that would suggest the EU is a shoo-in to be the colossus of the new millennium. But even a flop spook is right twice a generation. If anything, the date of EU collapse is rather a cautious estimate. It seems more likely that within the next couple of European election cycles, the internal contradictions of the EU will manifest themselves in the usual way, and that by 2010 we’ll be watching burning buildings, street riots, and assassinations on American network news every night. Even if they avoid that, the idea of a childless Europe ever rivaling America militarily or economically is laughable. Sometime this century there will be 500 million Americans, and what’s left in Europe will either be very old or very Muslim. Japan faces the same problem: its population is already in absolute decline, the first gentle slope of a death spiral it will be unlikely ever to climb out of. Will Japan be an economic powerhouse if it’s populated by Koreans and Filipinos? Very possibly. Will Germany if it’s populated by Algerians? That’s a trickier proposition.

Best-case scenario? The Continent winds up as Vienna with Swedish tax rates.

Worst-case scenario: Sharia, circa 2040; semi-Sharia, a lot sooner—and we’re already seeing a drift in that direction.

In July 2003, speaking to the United States Congress, Tony Blair remarked: “As Britain knows, all predominant power seems for a time invincible but, in fact, it is transient. The question is: What do you leave behind?”

Excellent question. Britannia will never again wield the unrivalled power she enjoyed at her imperial apogee, but the Britannic inheritance endures, to one degree or another, in many of the key regional players in the world today—Australia, India, South Africa—and in dozens of island statelets from the Caribbean to the Pacific. If China ever takes its place as an advanced nation, it will be because the People’s Republic learns more from British Hong Kong than Hong Kong learns from the Little Red Book. And of course the dominant power of our time derives its political character from eighteenth-century British subjects who took English ideas a little further than the mother country was willing to go.

A decade and a half after victory in the Cold War and end-of-history triumphalism, the “what do you leave behind?” question is more urgent than most of us expected. “The west,” as a concept, is dead, and the west, as a matter of demographic fact, is dying.

What will London—or Paris, or Amsterdam—be like in the mid-Thirties? If European politicians make no serious attempt this decade to wean the populace off their unsustainable thirty-five-hour weeks, retirement at sixty, etc., then to keep the present level of pensions and health benefits the EU will need to import so many workers from North Africa and the Middle East that it will be well on its way to majority Muslim by 2035. As things stand, Muslims are already the primary source of population growth in English cities. Can a society become increasingly Islamic in its demographic character without becoming increasingly Islamic in its political character?

This ought to be the left’s issue. I’m a conservative—I’m not entirely on board with the Islamist program when it comes to beheading sodomites and so on, but I agree Britney Spears dresses like a slut: I’m with Mullah Omar on that one. Why then, if your big thing is feminism or abortion or gay marriage, are you so certain that the cult of tolerance will prevail once the biggest demographic in your society is cheerfully intolerant? Who, after all, are going to be the first victims of the west’s collapsed birth rates? Even if one were to take the optimistic view that Europe will be able to resist the creeping imposition of Sharia currently engulfing Nigeria, it remains the case that the Muslim world is not notable for setting much store by “a woman’s right to choose,” in any sense. I watched that big abortion rally in Washington last year, where Ashley Judd and Gloria Steinem were cheered by women waving “Keep your Bush off my bush” placards, and I thought it was the equivalent of a White Russian tea party in 1917. By prioritizing a “woman’s right to choose,” western women are delivering their societies into the hands of fellows far more patriarchal than a 1950s sitcom dad. If any of those women marching for their “reproductive rights” still have babies, they might like to ponder demographic realities: A little girl born today will be unlikely, at the age of forty, to be free to prance around demonstrations in Eurabian Paris or Amsterdam chanting “Hands off my bush!”

Just before the 2004 election, that eminent political analyst Cameron Diaz appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show to explain what was at stake:

“Women have so much to lose. I mean, we could lose the right to our bodies… . If you think that rape should be legal, then don’t vote. But if you think that you have a right to your body,” she advised Oprah’s viewers, “then you should vote.”

Poor Cameron. A couple of weeks later, the scary people won. She lost all rights to her body. Unlike Alec Baldwin, she couldn’t even move to France. Her body was grounded in Terminal D.

But, after framing the 2004 Presidential election as a referendum on the right to rape, Miss Diaz might be interested to know that men enjoy that right under many Islamic legal codes around the world. In his book The Empty Cradle, Philip Longman asks: “So where will the children of the future come from? Increasingly they will come from people who are at odds with the modern world. Such a trend, if sustained, could drive human culture off its current market-driven, individualistic, modernist course, gradually creating an anti-market culture dominated by fundamentalism—a new Dark Ages.”

Bottom line for Cameron Diaz: There are worse things than John Ashcroft out there.

Longman’s point is well taken. The refined antennae of western liberals mean that, whenever one raises the question of whether there will be any Italians living in the geographical zone marked as Italy a generation or three hence, they cry, “Racism!” To fret about what proportion of the population is “white” is grotesque and inappropriate. But it’s not about race, it’s about culture. If 100 percent of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy, it doesn’t matter whether 70 percent of them are “white” or only 5 percent are. But, if one part of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy and the other doesn’t, then it becomes a matter of great importance whether the part that does is 9 percent of the population or only 60, 50, 45 percent.

Since the President unveiled the so-called Bush Doctrine—the plan to promote liberty throughout the Arab world—innumerable “progressives” have routinely asserted that there’s no evidence Muslims want liberty and, indeed, Islam is incompatible with democracy. If that’s true, it’s a problem not for the Middle East today but for Europe the day after tomorrow. According to a poll taken in 2004, over 60 percent of British Muslims want to live under sharia—in the United Kingdom. If a population “at odds with the modern world” is the fastest-breeding group on the planet—if there are more Muslim nations, more fundamentalist Muslims within those nations, more and more Muslims within non-Muslim nations, and more and more Muslims represented in more and more transnational institutions—how safe a bet is the survival of the “modern world”?

Not good.

“What do you leave behind?” asked Tony Blair. There will only be very few and very old ethnic Germans and French and Italians by the midpoint of this century. What will they leave behind? Territories that happen to bear their names and keep up some of the old buildings? Or will the dying European races understand that the only legacy that matters is whether the peoples who will live in those lands after them are reconciled to pluralist, liberal democracy? It’s the demography, stupid. And, if they can’t muster the will to change course, then “what do you leave behind?” is the only question that matters.

This article originally appeared in
The New Criterion, Volume 24, January 2006, on page 10
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [purple] [ In reply to ]
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Purple--Incredible display of denial. Those Baptists have quite a reputation for terrorism, don't they. Did you miss last month's action in France?

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I think burning a car in France is different than the states...more like TPing a house or smashing mailboxes, or dropping rocks of overpasses
I don't know how you get from TP'ing a house to dropping rocks off overpasses, and I sure don't see how you get from TP'ing a house to burning a car. Quite a "prank". Hopefully you are not on a parole board and never sit on a jury.
Last edited by: Monk: Jan 1, 06 14:41
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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don't know how you get from TP'ing a house to dropping rocks off overpasses, and I sure don't see how you get from TP'ing a house to burning a car. Quite a "prank". Hopefully you are not on a parole board and never sit on a jury.



Refer to my post above, which references the western liberal tendency to excuse any behavior by non-western peoples as a just response to an unjust western civilization which (as any right-thinking intellectual knows) seeks to deliver its "stain" upon all of the other just-as-equally-valuable "civilizations" out there.

It's the old sin of moral equivalency or moral relativism. Burning a car (sometimes, with the occupants still inside it) is a violent act. TPing a house or car doesn't even come close.

T.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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First thing to aggravate me in the new year! 400 cars burned by "youths". Nowhere in this article is the word Muslim used. Just one reference to them being "immigrants" and their children "from north and west Africa". Ha Ha. Go ahead Europe. Just keep closing your eyes until you have to be bailed out again. And "good on ya" AP, for being so deliciously politically correct. (I know they read Slowtwich and will be awfully embarrassed by this Post.)

************************************

1. They are kids ,from people of french colonies in Africa, brought back to france.

2. They are treated like second class citizens

3. Given a chance at only a poor education and job possibilities.

4. They are as muslim, as America blacks are slaves.

5. They are pissed for good reason ( according to my french spies )
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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I think the AP avoids using the word "Muslim" like most of us would avoid touching the electrified third rail of a subway's track system. This article is rife with code words that AP uses to describe what they're afraid of coming right out and saying:

A. Rowdy revelers in France torched 425 vehicles overnight in scattered New Year's Eve unrest that has become an annual problem in troubled neighborhoods...

- I wonder just what the religious affiliation in these "troubled neighborhoods" is?

B. In the nearby Var department of southern France, youths also threw rocks at firefighters in a troubled neighborhood of La-Seine-sur-Mer, local authorities said.

- Heh, heh....we get a two-for-one in this snippet: "youths" and "troubled neigborhood". Care to take a guess as to what religion dominates among these "youths"?

C. Outside Paris in the suburb of Argenteuil, a small fire was reported at a cultural center.

- Who's culture? France's classic western culture, or something not native to France itself, and imported in, along with the mullah and the jihad?

D. The unrest spread throughout the country in impoverished suburban housing projects that are home to many immigrants from North and West Africa and their French-born children. At the peak, youths incinerated 1,408 vehicles in a single night.

- This is AP's way of implying that Islam might be involved....but only in some amorphous, insubstantial way. Maybe. "Immigrants from North and West Africa", indeed. And the whole jape about "French-born children" is an attempt to deflect attention from the jihadist infection which threatens to sweep over the whole Muslim immigrant community in France.


E. "Diversity is part of our history: It is a resource," he said. "It is an asset for our future." (Jaques Chirac)

- The man is frantically bailing water out of the lifeboat, and to what purpose? My guess is that his gargantuan pride and invincible belief in the superiority of the Gallic version of "liberalism" prevents him from seeing the train coming down the track that's about to run him over.



Lamentable, but inevitable unless France and the rest of Europe wakes up and realizes that the people fighting us aren't fighting to win something from us, but to eliminate us.

T.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Helitech] [ In reply to ]
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4. They are as muslim, as America blacks are slaves.


Right. Or doctors, or lawyers, or Secretary of State. Are you taking night classes in Communism or Socialism?
Last edited by: Monk: Jan 1, 06 19:40
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Helitech] [ In reply to ]
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1. They are kids ,from people of french colonies in Africa, brought back to france.

2. They are treated like second class citizens

3. Given a chance at only a poor education and job possibilities.

4. They are as muslim, as America blacks are slaves.

5. They are pissed for good reason ( according to my french spies )


Just your #4 and #5 is reason enough to lump you in with all the rest of the self-hating apologists for radical Islam. Here's what I see as

#1. And they're literally biting the hands that are giving them a chance, at least, at a much better life than they could ever envision in their ancestral homelands, where they'd most likely live a life that was characterized, back in the 17th century, as "nasty, brutish, and short".

#2. Consider that the very insularity of their "I refuse to assimilate into the society to which I've emigrated, and which has graciously taken me in" attitude (which their parents surely hold, and which they might also cleave to) might just possibly be a major contributing factor to their second-class citizenship, if indeed they truly are being treated as second-class citizens. I highly doubt it, though, as the French seem to break their spines bending over backwards in an effort to encourage enough immigration to counteract their pitiful birthrate.

#3. They're given a chance, at least. Which is far, far more than they'd have back in their native countries. And this one sounds highly anecdotal, considering that France is especially well-known for the generosity of its social welfare programs.

#4. Being a black American is not a religious affiliation. It's a benign characteristic that one is born with. A Muslim identity, however, is most assuredly what the vast majority of these 'troubled youths' (in reality, AP-speak for "Muslim youths") claim.

#5. This one is outright apologism, and conveys a sense of being trapped in a morally-relativistic universe. Either these 'troubled youths' obey the law of the land, even though it's not Shari'a, or they don't, and they suffer the consequences for it.

Hey....maybe if these immigrants made more of an effort at becoming truly French, rather than biding their time for what they think will be the inevitable dhimmitude which will give them the upper hand, then maybe Chirac wouldn't have to go on TV every night, pleading for some sort of Frenchified version of that holy grail of the Left called "diversity".

T.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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1. They are kids ,from people of french colonies in Africa, brought back to france.

2. They are treated like second class citizens

3. Given a chance at only a poor education and job possibilities.

4. They are as Muslim, as America blacks are slaves.

5. They are pissed for good reason ( according to my french spies )


**********************************************************

My spin on it was , They and the French got run out of the African colonies on a rail . So no place to go back to, your the co-conspirator , burned the bridges .

Now the french are stuck with these colonists , the old folks just took it quietly . The younger kids are born there in france ,Now guilty by association , like trash with no trash can.

You don't want to leave your folks and birth country , but they don't like you here. They are like blacks in the 1920s ,,, Free at last , Free at Last. What are they going to say "I am Mexican not muslim " That only works in L.A.

Where is my gas can.
Burning a french car is a public service.


Last edited by: Helitech: Jan 1, 06 22:49
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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My bad analogy....the point was that Americans react more viscerally to a burning car than a Frenchman. You probably couldn't find an instance of TPing a house, smashing a mail box or kids dropping rocks off overpasses in recent history in Europe, but it happens every week in any US state. Likewise, setting a car on fire in the states happens rarely..not so in France (and not just by muslim youth)....regardless I'll drop it....it's not going any where...

The point was that it's not a muslim problem, its a class problem in France. Another analogy would be the Kosovars vs. Serbs in Kosovo.....Religion plays only a small role in the conflict, it's an ethnic problem. Al-queda poured into the Balklands in droves in the late 90's and left 5 days later when they realized few people went to the Mosques, their "brothers" liked to drink brewskies in the afternoon and their "sisters" didn't think "dressing to kill" had anything to do with explosives. ....only half in jest
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [purple] [ In reply to ]
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"Religion plays only a small role in the conflict, it's an ethnic problem. "

Unfortunately, in today's climate, people seem unable to separate Islam from anything else. If the people causing trouble are Muslims, then Islam must be the cause of the trouble. If the people causing trouble are Muslims, then it must be a Muslim problem. The truth is that sometimes it's a problem having to do with religion, and sometimes it's a problem having to do with economics, and sometimes it's a problem having to do with ethnic differences, and sometimes it's something else altogether.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I am afraid that Herr Monk has a rather poor understanding of the differences between Muslims and Northern African

immigrants in Europe, who, as someone said, are in vast majority non muslim, be it in France, Germany, Italy.

The events that occured recently in our neighbouring country, France, are nothing else than Hooliganism. I am afraid

they have little to do with the condition of the people living there, who are often hard working people, trying to live

right. This is used by some as an excuse when all these hooligans are only looking for violence and fights.

They just forgot that normally, you use a soccer game, hockey game etc. as an excuse. Not a new year's eve party.

The US are not exempt of this.

Riots after Detroit's win in NBA, 1990 lead to 7 dead + several $M of damage

Riots after Chicago's win in NBA, 1993 lead to 3 dead + several $M of damage

Same thing, same year when Montreal takes the Stanley cup (no death)


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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I am afraid that Herr Monk has a rather poor understanding of the differences between Muslims and Northern African


OK. You are right. Islam is not a problem in Europe. But tell me, why is enlightened France being so mean to these immigrants. They even banned the head dress from schools. And is Turkey being welcomed into the EU?

But if you want to think of it all as "kids will be kids", you deserve what you get.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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I am not sure where you are going Herr Monk. Your arguments have little to do with your initial claim that it was an

inherent Muslim problem. However, your questions are interesting so, I will attempt some sort of answer.

France does not have a very good record at taking good care of its immigrants from Northern Africa. Germany does

not have a good record at taking good care of its Turkish immigrants. GB does not have a really good record at taking

good care of its Indian and Pakistanese immigrants. And you will agree that the US does not have a very good record

at taking good care of its African-American population, Native American population, immigrants from Mexico. Each

of these countries tend to do the same thing. Immigrants can get residence papers rather easily, get benefits, but it

stops there. There is no real attempt at integrating these population to the existing population. Each of these

countries has failed there.



As you insist to equate Muslim and Immigrant from Northern Africa, I will answer the head dress issue. It is very simple.

It is the law. It has been like that since 1804. There is a very clear separation between the State and the Church in

several European countries, including France. This applies to School as well. Note that this does not apply, to Higher

Education. But in Elementary, Middle and High Schools, religion signs are forbidden. Whether a cross, a head scarf or

a kippa.



Eventually, your last statement is very interesting. 'Kids will be kids', you deserve what you get. European countries

have had to deal with its Immigrant population since roughly 1950. They have not gone a very good job at it. The

current French government is doing a very poor job at it. However, it should not erase some of the positive actions

done previously. The German government is also trying hard to integrate the Turkish population.

Now, do you really think the US should give a lesson to Europeans on how to integrate minorities? How long between

the end of the civil war and Rosa Parks refusing to give a seat to a white person? About 90 years...


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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In response to:

"I will answer the head dress issue. It is very simple.

It is the law. It has been like that since 1804. There is a very clear separation between the State and the Church in several European countries, including France. This applies to School as well. Note that this does not apply, to Higher Education. But in Elementary, Middle and High Schools, religion signs are forbidden. Whether a cross, a head scarf or a kippa. "

I would argue that there is no seperation of Church and State in France. Secularism is the religion established by the state. Banning the scarves is a law dating from about two years ago, not 1804.

The results of the pursuit of secularism are very predictable. The society doesn't make babies. France now is making only 1.85 babies/woman, with rates far lower in the non Muslim population. You don't have to project far into the future to envision a Muslim majority in France. What religious tolerance will you expect then?
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue that you are not correct. There is a very crisp separation of the State and the Church in France.

It became a necessity when the Roman Catholic Church tried to impose its will on several Kings or Emperors in Europe.

The ban of the head scarf is not only 2 years old. It goes back to Napoleon. It is a consequence of a law that states

that no religion signs could be shown in public schools. Jewish students or Christian students are not anymore allowed

to show a cross or wear a kippa (even during Yom Kippur) than Muslim women are allowed to wear a head scarf.

As many other European countries, France has private schools, usually with a religious orientation. Students are free

to attend these private schools if they wish to wear a cross, a kippa or a head scarf.

You can agree or disagree with the law (I do not think it's very logical anyway as when attending University, students

are free to wear religious symbols), however it is a law. And an old one.



As Herr Monk, you equate Northern African with Muslim. This is a very inaccurate vision of the reality. There is a non

negligeable part of the Northern African and Arab population in France (or Germany) that is actually Christian. They

are mostly from Lebanon. Currently, there are 5 million muslims in France, 12 million in Europe. There are 45 million

catholics (number of baptised people). The demography is slightly in favour of the immigrants from Northern Africa,

very marginally however. 1.85 average in France and 1.90 for the Northern Africans. You can try to evaluate when

there will be more Northern Africans than Christians, but I would not hold my breath to see it happen. As a matter

of fact, I would bet Mexican-Americans and African-Americans will outnumber 'white' Americans well before.

Besides, many of the Muslims from France are very moderate. France is not (and neither is Germany for instance) a

very religious country.



Last, but not least, saying that secularim will lead to a society that does not make babies is rather strange.

Religious signs are not allowed until students finish high school. I believe it is best to not see too many under

18yo parents.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"Banning the scarves is a law dating from about two years ago, not 1804."

No it isn't. The law has been around for a long time. It was just a big deal recently because they decided to enforce the existing law when Muslims complained about it.

"Secularism is the religion established by the state."

Very funny since the term "secular" specifically means non-religious.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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There is no real attempt at integrating these population to the existing population. Each of these
countries has failed there.


In America, a lot of the problem has to be shared. If we let them in on a visa, provide them jobs etc., there are many, myself included, who think they should take the initiative to integrate. Maybe that means not only hanging with people from their own background, learning English, etc., but the opportunities are there.

My wife teaches ESL to immigrants. There is a FREE course twice a week offered to anyone wanting to learn or improve on their English. This past term, despite heavy advertising in the Spanish communities, a grand total of 2 students joined her class. What more can the government do? To place the blame on our government is not right, these people have to take responsibility for themselves.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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In response to:

"The ban of the head scarf is not only 2 years old. It goes back to Napoleon."

----

From an AP story dated October, 2004:

(AP) France has quietly begun expelling Muslim girls for wearing head scarves to public schools in defiance of a new law banning conspicuous religious symbols, treading carefully for fear of endangering two French hostages in Iraq.

The expulsions of at least five girls since Tuesday were the first since the law went into effect at the start of the academic year on Sept. 2.

----

In terms of demographics, the Muslims have a higher birth rate and constitute most of a pretty healthy immigrant flow. While in better shape than Germany and Japan, France is demographically screwed. They need the immigrants to help pay for the unsustainable government benefits, but the secularism guarantees the country won't make enough babies to even sustain the population.

The United States is in a better situation, we make more babies, though still not enough, and we are doing a pretty good job absorping our immigrant population into our culture. America is becoming more and more "nonwhite," but it seems that the democratic value system is in no danger.

France and most of the EU countries look to be on track to a dramatic demographic upheaval, probably during my lifetime, certainly during my children's lifetime.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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In response to:

"Secularism is the religion established by the state."

Very funny since the term "secular" specifically means non-religious.

Yes, that is the dictionary definition. The reality of France and other countries is that, like Communist countries, the end result of their policies is to effectively ban religion for any public purpose. I would express that as a religion of secularism, or even radical secularism.

The concept makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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Well, Herr von Goethe, should the Muslims become a "problem", I'm sure you folks in the Deutschland will have an ultimate solution.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Quote:
In response to:

"The ban of the head scarf is not only 2 years old. It goes back to Napoleon."

----

From an AP story dated October, 2004:

(AP) France has quietly begun expelling Muslim girls for wearing head scarves to public schools in defiance of a new law banning conspicuous religious symbols, treading carefully for fear of endangering two French hostages in Iraq.

The expulsions of at least five girls since Tuesday were the first since the law went into effect at the start of the academic year on Sept. 2.
AJ--You and I are familiar with the truth of this matter, but Herr von Goethe prefers to just continue repeating a lie. He is more intelligent than we are, a scholar, it would seem from his profile, and best of all, he is Eurpoean. I think we should just concede his moral superiority, and nod in agreement even though he is clearly incorrect.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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Seeing as he is a new poster, maybe we can give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he was mistaken.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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Well Herr Monk, congratulations on being able to wait 4 posts before conceding defeat and resorting to insults.

A final solution? How smart.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I maintain. The 'new' law is just reemphasizing a law that dates back to 1804. Maybe AP reporters should dig deeper

instead of trying desperatly to get a 'scoop'.

You insist on equating Muslims and Northern Africans. This is sad. I would expect better from someone who usually

makes intelligent remarks (being a new poster does not mean I have lurked in the past).

The birth rates for 'whites' or northern africans are not very different. I agree that they are too low and will likely

create significant problems in the future with France's social security system of another era.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"I would express that as a religion of secularism, or even radical secularism.

The concept makes a lot of sense if you think about it. "

Only if you are willing to butcher the meanings of the words "secular" and "religion." Just a because a policy bans something, doesn't make that policy a "religion."

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, there are policies that date back to Napolean along the lines you suggest. No doubt about that.

A new law by the French Parliment was passed making their enforcement rather draconian. You can say nothing has changed, but that is simply not the case.

It targeted the Muslims without question, but picked up some collateral damage to other religions along the way just to be arguably secular.

I do agree that just because something is in the AP doesn't mean it has any basis in reality. In this case though, the reporting is accurate.

If you want a country that is demographically screwed though, you are living in it. I take no pleasure in that fact given that half of my ancestors left from Germany 115 years ago. A fertility rate of 1.39 babies per woman is not going to maintain the country. On a percentage basis Germany has about 2/3rds as many immigrants as the US, yet its population has peaked.

It is pretty hard to look around Europe and not conclude that secular societies are in the process of self destructing. All the philosophical and moral superiority means nothing if society implodes as a consequence.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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The German case is a lot worse. No doubt about that. But, we are doing at least twice as good as Japan.

I know it does not mean much. If you look at southern Europe, the problems are the same, this despite Religion

being a lot more present. I do not think that secularism is the cause for the low birth rates in Europe.

This is a problem. I do agree.

As for the French law. Yes it did target muslims because it was the only group that did not want to respect this

specific law.



You did not address the point concerning birth rates and ethnicity in the US


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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You can say nothing has changed, but that is simply not the case."

It's not that nothing has changed, just that this law was passed to clarify and enforce older laws that were vague enough to allow for varying interpretations. Although the head scarves got the press, it's pretty obvious that a lot of other things were banned as well. I'd be willing to bet that Yarmulkes are as important to strict Jews as hijabs are to strict Muslims. I really don't see the problem. If I understand the law correctly, from talking to various Frenchmen who seem to have kept up, it also bans religious displays or practices in school. For instance, Muslims can't insist on the curriculum being interrupted so they can pray during the day, or Christian fundamentalists can't decide on their own that they won't attend classes that teach evolution. also, the law only applies to govt funded schools. Sounds like Separation of Church and State, just like we're supposed to have here.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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We are not in great shape demographically either. Our population is getting older, but our population is going to continue to grow indefinitely.

We are not without our ethnic problems, but we really have zero religious problems, and we are doing a good job of integrating our immigrants, though not as good as in the past.

Being white, I would prefer a country that has a majority that looks like me. Far more important however, is that we have a majority that thinks like me. By that I mean a majority that values religous and economic freedom, democracy and capitalism.

Even in majority Hispanic Dade County Florida, the majority culture is Hispanic and the majority language is Spanish. Do not make the mistake that it is a foreign enclave, however. They value freedom, democracy and capitalism more than most native Americans. That immigrant attitude is the future and the past of America.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You can call it separation of church and state if you want. Such a law would, fortunately, not pass constitutional muster here.

I call it imposition of the state religion of secularism.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"You can call it separation of church and state if you want"

I will because that's what it is, not because that's what I want it to be.

"Such a law would, fortunately, not pass constitutional muster here. "

Yes, because our Constitution is not the same as the French. Our version of Separation of Church and State is not very strong. All our Constitution says is that we can't pass a law establishing a national religion and that we can't pass a law prohibiting the exercise of religion. I guess one could argue that "restricting" and "prohibiting" might not be the same thing, but that's an argument for some lawyer in some court someday.

"I call it imposition of the state religion of secularism."

Ok, but that sounds pretty dumb. Is our Constitution the imposition of our state religion of democracy?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You call it dumb if you like. But if you think it through, the consequences of viewing the description my way pretty well match up with reality. Quibble with the semantics as you choose.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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Well Herr Monk, congratulations on being able to wait 4 posts before conceding defeat and resorting to insults.


From you, Sr. Von Goethe, that is a compliment, as you were incapable of even one post with employing insults and disinformation. As for conceding defeat, I do indeed, for as you know, the Germans are either at your feet or at your throat, and I do not care to waste any energy putting such an obvious troll on his knees.


I had also thought you long since dead, so it was quite a surprise to find you creating a screen name on Slowtwitch just Saturday. I wonder what your other names have been here?
Last edited by: Monk: Jan 2, 06 18:04
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"You call it dumb if you like."

I like.

"Quibble with the semantics as you choose. "

I just love it when people decide that adhering to the actual definitions of words instead of made up ones is "semantics." Last I checked, people don't go to secular churches. They don't believe that secularity is the way to everlasting life. They don't think secularity explains man's existence. Secular means "not relating to or concerned with religion." It's really not that difficult.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"Being white, I would prefer a country that has a majority that looks like me."

Why?
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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No the concept of having a religion of trying to squash the effectiveness of religion is really quite simple. It has everything a religion has. It has zealots. These zealots have a philosophy. They try to impose it on others. They seek converts and try to indoctrinate others to their beliefs. They have their sacraments like abortion and government. They are intolerant of the opinions of others. They try to banish those conflicting opinions from the public discourse. They get quite strident and try to move society towards their beliefs and values.

Sorry, not seeing how radical secularism is substantively distinguishable from religion.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Tridiot] [ In reply to ]
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People always prefer to be members of the majority. They are more comfortable with people of similar backgrounds.

It takes a little thought to figure out what are the most essential elements of similar backgrounds. It doesn't take long to realize that how they think about basic values is way ahead of skin pigmentation or ancestoral heritage.

Feel free to quote me to me, but, next time, try to include the whole thought.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't care about the other part of the statement, which you explained (the shared values). I cared solely about the racial aspect of the paragraph, hence I quoted exactly what I was inquiring about.

I wanted to know why you cared if whites are in the racial majority, so I asked, and quoted the relevant statement.

Edit: If you felt there was any implied attitude or derisiveness to my original question, there wasn't. I was legitimately interested in the racial comment as the rest of the statement about background/values could have been made without saying you wanted a white majority.
Last edited by: Tridiot: Jan 2, 06 18:48
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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"No the concept of having a religion of trying to squash the effectiveness of religion is really quite simple."

The concept of a religion trying to squash the effectiveness of religon in general is a paradox.

"It has zealots."

Not everything with avid proponents is a religion.

"These zealots have a philosophy."

Not every philosophy qualifies as religion.

"They try to impose it on others."

Ok, but religion doesn't require imposed beliefs.

"They seek converts and try to indoctrinate others to their beliefs."

They seek to convince people that they are right. I do the same thing in almost every discussion of this forum. Doesn't mean each discussion is a religious one.

"They have their sacraments like abortion and government"

Abortion and government aren't sacraments. A Sacrament is a rite established by God as a channel for his grace. I think it's obvious that secularists don't view govt and abortion as the means to obtain God's grace.

"They are intolerant of the opinions of others."

Some secularists are, and some religious people are, and some Yankees fans are, etc, etc. Again, doens't make secularism a religion.

"They try to banish those conflicting opinions from the public discourse."

Ok, I'm not sure who you think you're describing, but neither religion nor secularism have it in their standard policy to keep anyone from talking about opposing positions. Some people from both groups probably share this trait, but that is a human flaw, not a quality of the institutions themselves.

"They get quite strident and try to move society towards their beliefs and values. "

As do any people who believe anything strongly. You get the same thing from environmentalists, conservatives, etc.

"Sorry, not seeing how radical secularism is substantively distinguishable from religion."

Oh, well, let me help you out. Secularism is about getting rid of religious influence in civil matters. Religion,...is not. If your only point is that any radical ideology can share some qualities, then congrats, you made an obvious point. However, secularism, even radical secularism, is an political or social ideology, not a religion.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Tridiot] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough.

Likewise for you slowguy.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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" They just forgot that normally, you use a soccer game, hockey game etc. as an excuse. Not a new year's eve party. "

you really beilive that? well maybe they are practicing for the world cup next summer, becouse looks to me the rate it is going, it's a long tournement rather than a game. It's interesting how you minimize the religious aspect which underlies these events.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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OK. You are right. Islam is not a problem in Europe.

Riiiiiiiight!! Madrid. London. Theo van Gogh. I'm really beginning to think that Europe needs a modern-day Charles Martel to spring forth and command some sort of response to the issue of radical Islam in Europe. I'm not saying a military response (that's just hoping for too much), but I hope that some of the leadership in the EU and its constituent countries wakes up and smells the coffee before it's too late.

Neville Chamberlain was wrong waaay back then, and that sort of response is wrong today. That'll never change, because the enemy we're struggling against isn't fighting us to win some sort of concessions. They're fighting to eliminate us. Accepting dhimmitude isn't the answer.

T.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Where did I say that Islam was not a problem in Europe? Please, enlight me. Of course it is. What I said was that

you cannot equate Northern African immigrant with Muslim. Of course, as it is traditional on this forum, you only

read what you want to read and Monk feels compelled to insult me and to wave off any argument on the grounds

that he has 5K posts and I am a new poster (and old lurker). Does my arguments bear less weight because I

decide to post anonymously? They do according to Monk who calls me a troll when my posts were neither insulting, nor

'trolling'. I presented my point of view on the matter without feeling the need to insult anyone. Obviously ajfranke and I

disagree, yet, there is a discussion.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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I am afraid that Herr Monk has a rather poor understanding...
Your first post.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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And? This is true. As long as you do not make a distinction between Northern African immigrants and Muslims, you

show that you do not really understand the problem France has. Yes, there is a problem with Islam. But these 400 cars

burnt had nothing to do with it. It's pure hooliganism, from mostly Northern African immigrant neighbourhood.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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To be honest with you, I wish I could think like you, but I cant ! I can't becuase any time there is a problem with people of Muslim origin, be it an ethnic one, scio.economic one, the problem gets magnified 10 times compare with people of different believes. And I am not talking of the demographic aspect of it nessacerily. Why is that ? I would love to get your explanation for that.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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And?
"And" I know how a troll baits rather than discusses. "And" you are a troll. "And" have a nice day.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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"I know how a troll baits rather than discusses."

And besides the first post, what exactly have you offered by way of discussion in this thread? Goethe has at least offered his opinions in a considered manner. Guess maybe you should think a little more about who the troll is.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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And besides the first post, what exactly have you offered by way of discussion in this thread? Goethe has at least offered his opinions in a considered manner. Guess maybe you should think a little more about who the troll is.
I guess I'm the troll, Herr Matt :(
Last edited by: Monk: Jan 3, 06 16:47
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [gschiffer] [ In reply to ]
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" To be honest with you, I wish I could think like you, but I cant ! "
------------------------------------------

This is interesting to me because I agree almost completely with JWcG. I wonder if this is a matter of prespective.

We get our information from personal experiences and from the media. What we have here is a European who (I would guess) reads predominately European news sources being told he is wrong about a European issue by people who live in the US and read (again I would guess) predominately US news sources.

As neither a European or a US citizen, but having lived for 7 years in UK, I understand exactly what JWcG is saying - religion in this case is coincidental but not necessary causal.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [davet] [ In reply to ]
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I dunno.....just from my experiences of being in the M.E. off-and-on for a few years, and from having grown up right next door to the largest Arab (and Muslim) population in the U.S. (Dearborn, MI) and hearing the muezzin issue the call to prayer for the Faithful just about every part of the day, I just think that Islam is particular in its hold on its adherents. And that it informs just about every aspect of a Muslim's life....whether that be as a result of the inculcation of those beliefs from a person's immigrant parents or by the adherent's own choice, it certainly seems to have quite a dynamic hold on one's self.

I'm really beginning to think that the European continent, in an effort to boost its moribund population growth, has made a deal with the devil in order to get somebody, anybody, to pick up the "slack", so to speak, population-wise. It's incipient dhimmitude. That word derives from the Arabic dhimmis, which lays out the status of minority peoples who are under Islamic rule. Sometimes, it's not too bad...but sometimes it can be horrific, depending upon the branch of Islam under which the particular minority people live.



T.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [davet] [ In reply to ]
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What we have here is a European


davet--I would be careful giving credibility to the opinions based on this "fact". He may in fact be European, but remember this is the Internet. Look at his profile, recently created, and his screen name and occupation--Google JW Von Goethe--probably 99% chance that they are phoney, unless there is a great coincidence. Perhaps the poor English, grammar, spelling lends credibility to your belief that he is European.

I am not saying to discount this poster's opinions for these reasons--or because he supposedly was just "moved" to begin posting after lurking all this time--just that they aren't necessarily entitled to greater weight.
Last edited by: Monk: Jan 4, 06 11:08
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [davet] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that I disgree with him rather than he is wrong. One thing I was thinking a lot lately is the fact that we preety much analyze processes that are happening and shaping itselfs right now. And normally you can't fully understand history in the makings. So who knows how will things ultimatley shape themselfs.

As big K. pointed I am also talking from experience with living next to arab muslims for long time. I visited eurpoe many times so I think I have fair understanding of some of the issues. In general, eurpoe, post WWII is different. There is a lot of Pacifism prevailed and along with certain social believes, I think the future is very uncertain for them. Primaruly becuase who the european are dealing with, rather then their own believes. I just think one must adjust itself to the reality in which he lives in.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I dunno.....just from my experiences of being in the M.E. off-and-on for a few years, and from having grown up right next door to the largest Arab (and Muslim) population in the U.S. (Dearborn, MI) and hearing the muezzin issue the call to prayer for the Faithful just about every part of the day, I just think that Islam is particular in its hold on its adherents. And that it informs just about every aspect of a Muslim's life....whether that be as a result of the inculcation of those beliefs from a person's immigrant parents or by the adherent's own choice, it certainly seems to have quite a dynamic hold on one's self.

Compare this to Orthodox Jews, devout Hindus, Quakers, or just about any other "committed" religious group members. No difference.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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Indeed, I am not the real Goethe. It's a very good guess, unless Heaven (or Hell) has internet access.

I am indeed a European. Also, please remember before making comments about my English that some countries in

Europe do speak English.

As for my poor English, I'd suggest you look carefully at your post.



However, gschiffer makes an excellent point. Why are there problems only with Northern African immigrant? I do not

think this is the case. In the US, the same thing happened in Watts. Well, it was a lot worse. And there was no

religious reason behind it. At least, as far as I know. Correct me if I am wrong. Also keep in mind that there are nearly

50% of 'whites' among the rioters in France (very often the same that show up at soccer game to pick up fights).

In most countries, there has been problems with immigrants. I am not sure why. However, it seems that the Asian

population integrates a lot better than others. It's definitely a cultural thing. It's definitely not because they worship

Buddha or are Taoists.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [davet] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting comment about the news sources. Underlying the comment is the unspoken assumption that we don't trust the news sources to give us an accurate picture.

I haven't commented much about the French riots except mostly to note that the news coverage is terrible. We aren't getting the big picture.

It may be that the underlying issues are complicated and obscure. It may also be that they are simple but our news sources don't put the issues into perspective.

One thing the issue has made clear to me is that France as a country is never going to conduct any foreign policy that is in any way in visible opposition to Islamic terrorism for fear of domestic repercussions.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Indeed, I am not the real Goethe. It's a very good guess, unless Heaven (or Hell) has internet access.

I am indeed a European. Also, please remember before making comments about my English that some countries in

Europe do speak English.

As for my poor English, I'd suggest you look carefully at your post.
I have exchanged PM's with Herr Von Goethe, and he has acknowledged that he was acting in a pedantic and condescending manner, and is, in fact, a consummate ass. Thus, we have reached an accord, and all is well in Twitchville.
Last edited by: Monk: Jan 4, 06 13:31
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Compare this to Orthodox Jews, devout Hindus, Quakers, or just about any other "committed" religious group members. No difference.

Quakers, Ken? C'mon.......

Besides, show me in the respective versions of their religious writings where "slay the non-believer" is advocated.

You're doing the relativism thing, again.

T.
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Re: 400 Cars Torched in France; AP afraid to use the word "Muslim" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][b]Compare this to Orthodox Jews, devout Hindus, Quakers, or just about any other "committed" religious group members. No difference. [/b]

Quakers, Ken? C'mon.......

Besides, show me in the respective versions of their religious writings where "slay the non-believer" is advocated.

You're doing the relativism thing, again.

T.[/reply]

Learn to read, please. I was responding to your statement "just think that Islam is particular in its hold on its adherents. And that it informs just about every aspect of a Muslim's life" (the part that I bolded") with the observation that there are many religions, Quaker included, aside from Islam that inform every aspect of their adherent's life.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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