My understanding is that what ends these things typically is the cops showing up, not necessarily even taking the shooter out but just being on the scene.

So, a stealthy drone wouldn't do much good there.

And if they are inside, would a drone do any good at all?

 

It could have provided the deputy with another excuse not to enter the building, "I was performing recon with the drone!"

You can fly a drone indoors. I think he is envisioning hovering drones, not fixed wing drones. That said, drones capable of carrying weapon systems are very large and very loud.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Even that might not be a bad thing if it draws the shooters attention away from other students. The weapon wouldn't need to be too large, even a .22 with a few rounds could be useful if it was accurate.

Yeah, I'm not sure we want quad copters with weapons on them just yet. I imagine there would need to be some work done on what the liability and use policies would be. Just imagine a quad with a firearm or taser attached that either accidentally shoots someone it's not supposed to, or is taken down by a perp (in the fairly limited maneuvering space inside a school building this might not be too difficult), giving him access to an additional weapon.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

And VERY VERY expensive.

IF we are going to consider something like this (and I am not saying we should), then it should be a wheeled robot. It would be easier to control, more stable, and more accurate. It would be like a bomb-handling remote vehicle. It could be big enough that the weapon system could be encased in armor so if the robot was "captured" by the shooter, the on-board weapon system could not be used.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Exactly. I'm not sure how many of these would be in operation around the country. These school shootings rarely happen in major metropolitan areas that would be more likely to have the means to have this system.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Robots are used frequently for EOD related events, but that's possible because you generally want to take your time with those. In a shooting situation where you want rapid resolution, you don't want to wait for the one specialized unit to respond, get the robot set up, get the command post set up, wheel the robot in, slowly wheel it around the school looking for the bad guy, etc. You're probably better off with typical responders clearing room by room, or responding directly to a known location of a shooter.

Maybe if you had a protracted hostage scenario with lots of time to set up and a known location of the hostages and hostage taker,...

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

It's the next arms race, Rick -- AI armed drones.

When you have Musk's AI able to crush all human competitors in the recent DOTA 2 (multi-player battle arena game) competition, and the ease of mounting small arms (or explosives) on drones, the next era of warfare is imminent.

Smaller states and rogue actors may not be able to easily develop nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, but soon anybody who wants to will be able to make smart killer drones. The race is on. And, it's going to make our current gun control debates seem quaint and antiquated.

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

Could be small, ala Slaughterbots

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Prescient video. Thanks.

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

We shoot missiles and things like that with drones but I don't think the technology is close to have a drone rip though the inside of a school and execute a perfect head shot on a bad guy.

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Don't hold back

Thoughts? Different than many - I think school shootings resulting in multiple deaths are rare and that we are making more of them than they deserve. Dating back to 1980 there have been 8 shootings at elementary, middle, and high schools involving 4 or more deaths, including the shooter. Another one involved 4 deaths, Kip Kinkel, but 2 of those were his parents and only 2 were students.

We have made this a national crisis when it is in fact still very unlikely to happen.

Now both sides of the political aisle are joining in. The right wants armed teachers, the left wants to enact gun control. All based on something that kills a small fraction of the number of people killed by lightning every year. A generous count of deaths at grade schools has, I think if my count is right, 76 deaths since beginning of 2010. That number includes the shooters who died and people involved off school grounds (if any) that died during a particular incident.

If we put weapons in schools in numbers great enough to reduce the numbers, what are the chances they will prevent more injuries and deaths than they cause through misuse and accident?

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Our district has a few drones and took training on using them for recon work. I think they are mostly for roof inspections etc though.

I wonder what would happen if we put all of the money spent on security and training into free mental health resources though.

It just feels like an arms race that doesn’t solve the problem. What is that saying when you have seconds to live the cops are minutes away.

Would every school have an armed drone? Every classroom? Most of these incidents do not last long. Getting a trained pilot and drone deployed seems unlikely in the timeframe of most of these and why would the gunman not just shoot the drone down?

Ok sounds good on the surface, but what if the drone shoots the janitor who is now licensed to be running around with his gun out now? Or some teacher? I have a feeling that a person working a drone like a video game is going to be a lot less careful when encountering people running around with guns drawn that actual cops on the scene.

Now a drone or drones to capture what is happening I real time with someone relaying information to the first on scene, that could be a huge help now that there will be more good guys with guns running around than bad guys. There has to be some system now to sort those out quickly, every second could be another kid death. Drones getting in quickly before first on scene cops would be great to have. They might even take attention away if the shooter becomes aware of them, no really knowing if they have deadly force on them or not.. Or just knowing he is found out and making a run for it.

And it seems like they could get there in front too, once you deploy the swat team(who have these things) send it out ahead in a straight line vs the slow road they are taking. Have the operator in the vehicle so he is on scene the same time as the calvary. And this way would be really cheap, drones are just kid toys nowadays, and priced accordingly.

Let's just say knowing what I know based upon my licensing (FAA Commercial Drone) & unemployed technology, there is lethal nano tech that would blow your mind. Will it make its way to LEO? Maybe. If it is to happen, we are 5-10 years away. Cost & operating environment will also be factors.

These things would cost millions of dollars each. We're not talking about a DJI drone carrying around a 100g camera.

What school district could afford something like this? How many police departments even have bomb robots that move at a snail's pace?

What about locked doors? I don't even know if the military has a breaching robot. That alone will cost a ton of money. And it would probably still need a trained team to carry and use it.

I wholeheartedly agree more needs to be done regarding mental health. That said, would "free mental heath resources" have stopped any of these shooters?

Florida School Shooter: Was receiving mental health treatment. Stopped and refused to go back about 1 year prior to shooting. No financial issue regarding treatment.

Virginia Tech Shooter: Diagnosed with severe anxiety. Was receiving "free" mental health treatment along with "free" special education courses.

Texas Church Shooter: Actually escaped from a mental health facility which was provided to him at no direct charge to him.

Aurora Theater Shooter: Self-reported to his college counselor. He was receiving treatment from 3 different doctors and medication at no cost to him.

Sandy Hook Shooter: Mother tried to get him committed, but he was an adult and could not be locked up without his consent. No financial issue regarding treatment.

There seems to be a trend in these cases and lack of mental health resources was not an issue in any of them.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You guys can't see the forest for the trees. The drone has a camera, so it provides information, which is tactically and strategically useful. Further, the drone IS a weapon. Just because it doesn't go pew-pew does not mean you can't use it to attack a shooter. Even if the pilot can't make a direct hit it would be a hell of a distraction to someone trying to carry out a plan.

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Less is more.

You watch WAY too many movies. It simply doesn't work like that. For instance, is the drone going to open a classroom door to search each classroom? And then you are asking an operator to hit a moving target. Most guys wouldn't even be able to land a drone on a specific spot on a floor much less trying to hit a moving body.

There seems to be a trend in these cases and lack of mental health resources was not an issue in any of them. //

The trend is that there is no data base for any of this and all of them could just go buy an AR-15 in an instant. In the last case it was widely known it appears about his problems, but once again nothing on the computers at gun stores to tell them not to sell to this guy. I know a lot of this debate tends to fall on particular weapons and such, but really, common sense dictates that this data base has to get off of paper and into the real world, and someone needs to know at purchase point about borderline and over the line individuals..

There's always this classic:

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War is god

I have said this multiple times.

My point being - no amount of "free mental health treatment" would have altered the outcome of these cases. We need to worry less about putting more money into mental health and, instead, re-evaluate how we treat mental health and patient privacy.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I agree with you points except this one. You'd be surprised what a skilled operator can do. Check out YouTube.

I could envision a swarm of small, low-cost drones entering a building or campus and automatically dispersing to cover a wide area. They'd provide video, bidirectional audio, and a secure network. Any one or combination of them could go into "flashbang mode" emitting debilitating/distracting sound and light.

It will get there, but not any time soon for any type of cost efficient pricepoint. Yes a skilled operator could do it. How many of those would be in a school/on a police force?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You have not been near or flown a drone, they are NOT stealthy, they are pretty loud. You can hear mine fly overhead when its at 300ft. Granted at that height you have to be listening for it, but 200ft you know its there. Pretty easy to shoot down inside since you wont have lots of room to maneuver. Fixed camera's in the hallway with police access would be a lower cost, more effective solution.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I have been around one a couple of times. Stealth can pertain to visibility. If someone is shooting or looking for students, they may not pay attention to that buzzing sound. Likewise, if they were outside - the drone could be high enough that they would have to look for it if they did hear it. That distraction is a positive.

Then, if they wanted to empty their gun shooting at it - then that is one magazine less ammo they have to shoot at students.

Odd you choose 1980, Columbine was in 1999 and what I think of as the first mass school shooting, they seem to be increasing in frequency, and I think anytime kids in a supposedly safe place of school are killed in mass its going to get more attention.

But your opinion, is in line with what I think is happening in this country, eh it's ok it doesn't happen that often. Just another day in America.

Well this is an interesting link, Seems China has a problem with school killings also. https://en.wikipedia.org/..._of_school_massacres

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Wouldn't just sending in a couple dogs be easier yet. Heck maybe thats it, each schools get 2 dogs per every 1000 students.

RELEASE THE HOUNDS

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Only if they have bees in their mouths.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'll go back to 1764 if it made you happy, but that was Indians or to 2010 if that works https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...in_the_United_States

Mass shootings in grade schools (elementary, middle, high) resulting in 4 or more deaths really are not really more frequent, 3 since 2010.

I'm not nonchalant about school shootings. But it also isn't hard to see people trying to use them to advance whatever political agenda they have. I doubt their sincerity, especially since every side imaginable thinks it proves their side is righteous. Far more people die from far more mundane issues that we ignore. But then it is hard to politicize lightning and bees.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

The trend is that none of these documented mental-health cases had their access to weapons restricted or monitored? That might work... it would at least raise one barrier that seems to be pretty low at this point.

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Less is more.

It's basically impossible to look at Wikipedia HTML tables and conclude fuck-all. So here's some graphs I made by copying HTML tables into Google Docs and doing a little maths.

A little misleading on the end because 2018 isn't over yet, but the data is included. I could go further back if anyone cares, went to 1990.

I haven't done a regression, but from a statistics perspective I'd bet we'd get a positive slope on all 3 stats line from 1990-2018.

It was really obvious while calculating the stats. To calculate frequency at first I was was just eyeball-counting (4's and 5's). Once I got to 2006 or so I had to start using macros to save time. There is one double-digit count (1994) before 2006. From 2007 on there are 9, including this year in March.

So something is happening, statistically, if you believe the Wikipedia numbers. How much significance you want to place on it is up to you.

You have much more ambition (and time apparently) than I do. :)

As we have discussed before, a lot is also going to come down to how we define 'school shooting'.

I did not use university shootings as I think those are usually more akin to a workplace shooting and involve older perpetrators.

I only counted 4 or more deaths including the shooter because that is what I felt like doing at the time. There will always (at least since Cain gave Abel 40 whacks with an axe) be instances of one person getting mad at one other person and killing them, school or not, so I looked for the more lethal instances.

And it is tough to tell what was a school related shooting and what was a shooting that just happened to occur near or at a school.

I'm not saying that school shootings are not problematic. I am not saying they are not increasing at some rate., though I think that rate is lower than most people believe. All I am saying is that they are not increasing nearly as dramatically per capita as portrayed and that they are not the scourge on humanity as portrayed.

I may have come off flip, but the US averages more than 50 deaths a year from both bees and lightning, each averages more than the highest total ever (I think) for school violence incidents. But I cannot remember either of those getting any attention at all in our news and both are very preventable without infringing on anyone's rights.

There are far, far more people (and children) killed by guns every day in other circumstance so I would not base gun control laws on school shootings and I certainly wouldn't decide to put multiple armed teachers and several guns just waiting for an accident or misuse in every school in response.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Ground robot perhaps. Drone? No way. How many of these things are there going to be? To have one that can be deployed in such a short period of time makes this impractical. Hell even a ground robot would take time to deploy. I imagine the skill level of the pilot would be very high. How quickly could these operators be deployed? Would probably need to form part of SWAT.