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"Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
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Try to write a polite well thought out respectful memo about diversity a topic you feel passionate about and then... Get shit-canned.
The memo in ways is about Google having no tolerance for for ideological diversity. Then Google proves his point by firing him.

Bye bye James we want diversity and freedom just not your type even if it is based on research and the truth.
So bring on the lawsuit we will pay you off quickly so this goes away and we can continue on in our safe space. ~ Google


CEO, Sundar Pichai, sent a memo to staff characterizing Damore’s memo-writing as “advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace,” You be the judge:

“Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber,”
The text of the post is reproduced in full below, with some minor formatting modifications. Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted.


Reply to public response and misrepresentation
I value diversity and inclusion, am not denying that sexism exists, and don’t endorse using stereotypes. When addressing the gap in representation in the population, we need to look at population level differences in distributions. If we can’t have an honest discussion about this, then we can never truly solve the problem. Psychological safety is built on mutual respect and acceptance, but unfortunately our culture of shaming and misrepresentation is disrespectful and unaccepting of anyone outside its echo chamber. Despite what the public response seems to have been, I’ve gotten many personal messages from fellow Googlers expressing their gratitude for bringing up these very important issues which they agree with but would never have the courage to say or defend because of our shaming culture and the possibility of being fired. This needs to change.
TL:DR

  • Google’s political bias has equated the freedom from offense with psychological safety, but shaming into silence is the antithesis of psychological safety.
  • This silencing has created an ideological echo chamber where some ideas are too sacred to be honestly discussed.
  • The lack of discussion fosters the most extreme and authoritarian elements of this ideology.
  • Extreme: all disparities in representation are due to oppression
  • Authoritarian: we should discriminate to correct for this oppression
  • Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business.


Background [1]
People generally have good intentions, but we all have biases which are invisible to us. Thankfully, open and honest discussion with those who disagree can highlight our blind spots and help us grow, which is why I wrote this document.[2] Google has several biases and honest discussion about these biases is being silenced by the dominant ideology. What follows is by no means the complete story, but it’s a perspective that desperately needs to be told at Google.
Google’s biases
At Google, we talk so much about unconscious bias as it applies to race and gender, but we rarely discuss our moral biases. Political orientation is actually a result of deep moral preferences and thus biases. Considering that the overwhelming majority of the social sciences, media, and Google lean left, we should critically examine these prejudices.
Left Biases

  • Compassion for the weak
  • Disparities are due to injustices
  • Humans are inherently cooperative
  • Change is good (unstable)
  • Open
  • Idealist
Right Biases
  • Respect for the strong/authority
  • Disparities are natural and just
  • Humans are inherently competitive
  • Change is dangerous (stable)
  • Closed
  • Pragmatic


Neither side is 100% correct and both viewpoints are necessary for a functioning society or, in this case, company. A company too far to the right may be slow to react, overly hierarchical, and untrusting of others. In contrast, a company too far to the left will constantly be changing (deprecating much loved services), over diversify its interests (ignoring or being ashamed of its core business), and overly trust its employees and competitors.
Only facts and reason can shed light on these biases, but when it comes to diversity and inclusion, Google’s left bias has created a politically correct monoculture that maintains its hold by shaming dissenters into silence. This silence removes any checks against encroaching extremist and authoritarian policies. For the rest of this document, I’ll concentrate on the extreme stance that all differences in outcome are due to differential treatment and the authoritarian element that’s required to actually discriminate to create equal representation.
Possible non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech [3]
At Google, we’re regularly told that implicit (unconscious) and explicit biases are holding women back in tech and leadership. Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole story.
On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just socially constructed because:

  • They’re universal across human cultures
  • They often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone
  • Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males
  • The underlying traits are highly heritable
  • They’re exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective


Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions.
Personality differences
Women, on average, have more:

  • Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing).
  • These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics.
  • Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness.
  • This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Note that these are just average differences and there’s overlap between men and women, but this is seen solely as a women’s issue. This leads to exclusory programs like Stretch and swaths of men without support.
  • Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.


Note that contrary to what a social constructionist would argue, research suggests that “greater nation-level gender equality leads to psychological dissimilarity in men’s and women’s personality traits.” Because as “society becomes more prosperous and more egalitarian, innate dispositional differences between men and women have more space to develop and the gap that exists between men and women in their personality becomes wider.” We need to stop assuming that gender gaps imply sexism.
Men’s higher drive for status
We always ask why we don’t see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many men in these jobs. These positions often require long, stressful hours that may not be worth it if you want a balanced and fulfilling life.
Status is the primary metric that men are judged on[4], pushing many men into these higher paying, less satisfying jobs for the status that they entail. Note, the same forces that lead men into high pay/high stress jobs in tech and leadership cause men to take undesirable and dangerous jobs like coal mining, garbage collection, and firefighting, and suffer 93% of work-related deaths.
Non-discriminatory ways to reduce the gender gap
Below I’ll go over some of the differences in distribution of traits between men and women that I outlined in the previous section and suggest ways to address them to increase women’s representation in tech and without resorting to discrimination. Google is already making strides in many of these areas, but I think it’s still instructive to list them:

  • Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things
  • We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles and Google can be and we shouldn’t deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing this).
  • Women on average are more cooperative
  • Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive. Recent updates to Perf may be doing this to an extent, but maybe there’s more we can do. This doesn’t mean that we should remove all competitiveness from Google. Competitiveness and self reliance can be valuable traits and we shouldn’t necessarily disadvantage those that have them, like what’s been done in education. Women on average are more prone to anxiety. Make tech and leadership less stressful. Google already partly does this with its many stress reduction courses and benefits.
  • Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average
  • Unfortunately, as long as tech and leadership remain high status, lucrative careers, men may disproportionately want to be in them. Allowing and truly endorsing (as part of our culture) part time work though can keep more women in tech.
  • The male gender role is currently inflexible
  • Feminism has made great progress in freeing women from the female gender role, but men are still very much tied to the male gender role. If we, as a society, allow men to be more “feminine,” then the gender gap will shrink, although probably because men will leave tech and leadership for traditionally feminine roles.


Philosophically, I don’t think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimizing for Google—with Google’s diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google’s funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged.


The Harm of Google’s biases
I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:

  • Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race [5]
  • A high priority queue and special treatment for “diversity” candidates
  • Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate
  • Reconsidering any set of people if it’s not “diverse” enough, but not showing that same scrutiny in the reverse direction (clear confirmation bias)
  • Setting org level OKRs for increased representation which can incentivize illegal discrimination [6]

These practices are based on false assumptions generated by our biases and can actually increase race and gender tensions. We’re told by senior leadership that what we’re doing is both the morally and economically correct thing to do, but without evidence this is just veiled left ideology[7] that can irreparably harm Google.

Why we’re blind
We all have biases and use motivated reasoning to dismiss ideas that run counter to our internal values. Just as some on the Right deny science that runs counter to the “God > humans > environment” hierarchy (e.g., evolution and climate change) the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences). Thankfully, climate scientists and evolutionary biologists generally aren’t on the right. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of humanities and social scientists learn left (about 95%), which creates enormous confirmation bias, changes what’s being studied, and maintains myths like social constructionism and the gender wage gap[9]. Google’s left leaning makes us blind to this bias and uncritical of its results, which we’re using to justify highly politicized programs.
In addition to the Left’s affinity for those it sees as weak, humans are generally biased towards protecting females. As mentioned before, this likely evolved because males are biologically disposable and because women are generally more cooperative and areeable than men. We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and whiner[10]. Nearly every difference between men and women is interpreted as a form of women’s oppression. As with many things in life, gender differences are often a case of “grass being greener on the other side”; unfortunately, taxpayer and Google money is spent to water only one side of the lawn.
The same compassion for those seen as weak creates political correctness[11], which constrains discourse and is complacent to the extremely sensitive PC-authoritarians that use violence and shaming to advance their cause. While Google hasn’t harbored the violent leftists protests that we’re seeing at universities, the frequent shaming in TGIF and in our culture has created the same silence, psychologically unsafe environment.
Suggestions
I hope it’s clear that I’m not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn’t try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority. My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism).
My concrete suggestions are to:


De-moralize diversity.

  • As soon as we start to moralize an issue, we stop thinking about it in terms of costs and benefits, dismiss anyone that disagrees as immoral, and harshly punish those we see as villains to protect the “victims.”


Stop alienating conservatives.

  • Viewpoint diversity is arguably the most important type of diversity and political orientation is one of the most fundamental and significant ways in which people view things differently.
  • In highly progressive environments, conservatives are a minority that feel like they need to stay in the closet to avoid open hostility. We should empower those with different ideologies to be able to express themselves.
  • Alienating conservatives is both non-inclusive and generally bad business because conservatives tend to be higher in conscientiousness, which is require for much of the drudgery and maintenance work characteristic of a mature company.


Confront Google’s biases.

  • I’ve mostly concentrated on how our biases cloud our thinking about diversity and inclusion, but our moral biases are farther reaching than that.
  • I would start by breaking down Googlegeist scores by political orientation and personality to give a fuller picture into how our biases are affecting our culture.


Stop restricting programs and classes to certain genders or races.

  • These discriminatory practices are both unfair and divisive. Instead focus on some of the non-discriminatory practices I outlined.


Have an open and honest discussion about the costs and benefits of our diversity programs.

  • Discriminating just to increase the representation of women in tech is as misguided and biased as mandating increases for women’s representation in the homeless, work-related and violent deaths, prisons, and school dropouts.
  • There’s currently very little transparency into the extend of our diversity programs which keeps it immune to criticism from those outside its ideological echo chamber.
  • These programs are highly politicized which further alienates non-progressives.
  • I realize that some of our programs may be precautions against government accusations of discrimination, but that can easily backfire since they incentivize illegal discrimination.


Focus on psychological safety, not just race/gender diversity.

  • We should focus on psychological safety, which has shown positive effects and should (hopefully) not lead to unfair discrimination.
  • We need psychological safety and shared values to gain the benefits of diversity
  • Having representative viewpoints is important for those designing and testing our products, but the benefits are less clear for those more removed from UX.


De-emphasize empathy.

  • I’ve heard several calls for increased empathy on diversity issues. While I strongly support trying to understand how and why people think the way they do, relying on affective empathy—feeling another’s pain—causes us to focus on anecdotes, favor individuals similar to us, and harbor other irrational and dangerous biases. Being emotionally unengaged helps us better reason about the facts.


Prioritize intention.

  • Our focus on microaggressions and other unintentional transgressions increases our sensitivity, which is not universally positive: sensitivity increases both our tendency to take offense and our self censorship, leading to authoritarian policies. Speaking up without the fear of being harshly judged is central to psychological safety, but these practices can remove that safety by judging unintentional transgressions.
  • Microaggression training incorrectly and dangerously equates speech with violence and isn’t backed by evidence.


Be open about the science of human nature.

  • Once we acknowledge that not all differences are socially constructed or due to discrimination, we open our eyes to a more accurate view of the human condition which is necessary if we actually want to solve problems.


Reconsider making Unconscious Bias training mandatory for promo committees.

  • We haven’t been able to measure any effect of our Unconscious Bias training and it has the potential for overcorrecting or backlash, especially if made mandatory.
  • Some of the suggested methods of the current training (v2.3) are likely useful, but the political bias of the presentation is clear from the factual inaccuracies and the examples shown.
  • Spend more time on the many other types of biases besides stereotypes. Stereotypes are much more accurate and responsive to new information than the training suggests (I’m not advocating for using stereotypes, I [sic] just pointing out the factual inaccuracy of what’s said in the training).

[1] This document is mostly written from the perspective of Google’s Mountain View campus, I can’t speak about other offices or countries.
[2] Of course, I may be biased and only see evidence that supports my viewpoint. In terms of political biases, I consider myself a classical liberal and strongly value individualism and reason. I’d be very happy to discuss any of the document further and provide more citations.
[3] Throughout the document, by “tech”, I mostly mean software engineering.
[4] For heterosexual romantic relationships, men are more strongly judged by status and women by beauty. Again, this has biological origins and is culturally universal.
[5] Stretch, BOLD, CSSI, Engineering Practicum (to an extent), and several other Google funded internal and external programs are for people with a certain gender or race.
[6] Instead set Googlegeist OKRs, potentially for certain demographics. We can increase representation at an org level by either making it a better environment for certain groups (which would be seen in survey scores) or discriminating based on a protected status (which is illegal and I’ve seen it done). Increased representation OKRs can incentivize the latter and create zero-sum struggles between orgs.
[7] Communism promised to be both morally and economically superior to capitalism, but every attempt became morally corrupt and an economic failure. As it became clear that the working class of the liberal democracies wasn’t going to overthrow their “capitalist oppressors,” the Marxist intellectuals transitioned from class warfare to gender and race politics. The core oppressor-oppressed dynamics remained, but now the oppressor is the “white, straight, cis-gendered patriarchy.”
[8] Ironically, IQ tests were initially championed by the Left when meritocracy meant helping the victims of the aristocracy.
[9] Yes, in a national aggregate, women have lower salaries than men for a variety of reasons. For the same work though, women get paid just as much as men. Considering women spend more money than men and that salary represents how much the employees sacrifices (e.g. more hours, stress, and danger), we really need to rethink our stereotypes around power.
[10] “The traditionalist system of gender does not deal well with the idea of men needing support. Men are expected to be strong, to not complain, and to deal with problems on their own. Men’s problems are more often seen as personal failings rather than victimhood,, due to our gendered idea of agency. This discourages men from bringing attention to their issues (whether individual or group-wide issues), for fear of being seen as whiners, complainers, or weak.”
[11] Political correctness is defined as “the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against,” which makes it clear why it’s a phenomenon of the Left and a tool of authoritarians.
Last edited by: getcereal: Aug 9, 17 9:31
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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We are not ready to give up our notion of protected classes. There are orgs who depend on the class wars for their existence. There are legions of protected types who have come to like believing that external forces are keeping them down. Both absorb only those statistics that reinforce their preconceptions.

The concept of protected classes must itself be protected from criticism.

That Voltaire quote was awesome.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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There is nothing wrong with the concept of protected classes. The problem is that now we don't have protected classes we have protected sexes and protected races etc.

Some sexes are no longer protected. Some races are no longer protected.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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What?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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He nails it. This memo is thoughtful, considerate, and worthy of a corporate discussion. It seems to elevate the thinking and rationale beyond the simple reactionary response that is each sides natural inclination and get to what matters most for the company. He does this with a tone and manner that is, in my reading, extremely- perhaps even overly- compassionate and understanding. He talks about stereotypes on one hand but acknowledges that stereotypes don't always prove true. However the company seems to have focused on the perpetuation of stereotypes.

He seems to desire a company that has elevated its social programs beyond artificial gender and racial objectives to a real meritocracy, where all have equal opportunity and equal support.

It seems that Google is afraid have this discussion and has picked it path.

Suffer Well.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:

It seems that Google is afraid have this discussion and has picked it path.

Google preaches tolerance towards everyone that agrees with them. If you disagree you are not tolerated.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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I think it could have been a good memo on the pitfalls and challenges of "diversity for diversity sake", if it wasn't just one big whine-fest about how he feels he is discriminated against because he's conservative.

Look at his analysis of trait differences and lack of ideas/suggestions on how to improve things without discriminating:
Suggestion #1 - Admits google is already doing it.
Suggestion #2 - Admits google is already doing it, but maybe could do more
Suggestion #3 - Change gender roles...Feminism you did great with this...and nothing else...no further suggestions.

So, here were the differences and suggestions on how to address them without discriminating....oh look, Google is already doing most of it....so what are you complaining about again? Oh yeah, you're conservative and feel discriminated against. boo f**king hoo.

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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [ubdawg] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't the point of anti discrimination that nobody should be discriminated against?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:
He nails it. This memo is thoughtful, considerate, and worthy of a corporate discussion.

Disagree. It's a snowflake whining about being "shamed" and a horrendous hell-broth of cartoonish stereotype presented as "science." (ooh, he made graph and a table!)
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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No argument there. Just don't expect to be taken seriously when you wrap your "political" diversity complaint up in a "look at me try to be helpful with gender diversity issues" memo. As I said, he pointed out issues and provided no suggestions beyond what was already being done.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [ubdawg] [ In reply to ]
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Bravo. Well put
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [ubdawg] [ In reply to ]
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ubdawg wrote:
No argument there. Just don't expect to be taken seriously when you wrap your "political" diversity complaint up in a "look at me try to be helpful with gender diversity issues" memo. As I said, he pointed out issues and provided no suggestions beyond what was already being done.

It was a trick question. The point of anti discrimination is that two wrongs make a right.

Haven't you learned anything?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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Its a protected class from an EEOC perspective. Regardless of whether his argument has merit, as a manager or someone with the ability to influence hiring, firing, advancements, merit pay, etc - he is not able to take this position. The whole idea of protected classes is to avoid biased thinking... it may be a blunt tool at times, but it is a fact of life from an HR perspective just like aggressive workplace safety or environmental regs may be. And just the same in those arenas, I may disagree with the regs, but if I ignore them in the performance of my job, I can be held accountable up to and including termination.

He's free to believe those things - but he's not free nor entitled to carry them over into the discharge of his duties as a manager at Google.




"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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A very direct read of that quote would be "He criticized his employer and found out they rule over him (with respect to his employment)". I'm going to guess that isn't what you meant though...
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
That Voltaire quote was awesome.

Interesting it resonated with you. You see, it's not Voltaire. Its actually from Kevin Alfred Strom.
K.A. Strom is a white supremacist and Neo-Nazi from Alaska. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Alfred_Strom )
I suppose people are more likely to misappropriate the idea of a quote for their own bigotted way of thinking if they attribute its genesis to a great philosopher. Maybe Strom's followers should have connected the quote to Heidegger instead.

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
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I knew it! I didn't know who the quote came from but that wasn't Voltaire.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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The issue is balancing private good versus public good.

Discriminating against a person is wrong. Discriminating against an entire class of people for centuries is arguably much worse. As a society, does it do us more good to try to correct for that large discrimination at the cost of individual discrimination, or to let things take their course and hope the inertia doesn’t last centuries more?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
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As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Never trust quotes you find on the internet.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
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Guffaw wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
That Voltaire quote was awesome.


Interesting it resonated with you. You see, it's not Voltaire. Its actually from Kevin Alfred Strom.
K.A. Strom is a white supremacist and Neo-Nazi from Alaska. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Alfred_Strom )
I suppose people are more likely to misappropriate the idea of a quote for their own bigotted way of thinking if they attribute its genesis to a great philosopher. Maybe Strom's followers should have connected the quote to Heidegger instead.

Interesting that you take what is essentially a neutral (and true) statement about society in general and discount it as a bigotted way of thinking just because of the source. That sounds bigotted to me. Do you disagree with the statement? Would you still feel the same way before you Googled the quote to check the source? What, specifically about the quote reflects bigotry or racism or whatever the objection du jour is for today?

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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The statement it too broad to make sense. Everything is criticized and everything is defended. To say that have a negative effect from a criticism is a direct threat to freedom is just stupid.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Team Schwinn] [ In reply to ]
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Team Schwinn wrote:
Its a protected class from an EEOC perspective. Regardless of whether his argument has merit, as a manager or someone with the ability to influence hiring, firing, advancements, merit pay, etc - he is not able to take this position. The whole idea of protected classes is to avoid biased thinking... it may be a blunt tool at times, but it is a fact of life from an HR perspective just like aggressive workplace safety or environmental regs may be. And just the same in those arenas, I may disagree with the regs, but if I ignore them in the performance of my job, I can be held accountable up to and including termination.

He's free to believe those things - but he's not free nor entitled to carry them over into the discharge of his duties as a manager at Google.

I think he was just an engineer who wrote a memo of things he witnessed. He wasn't managing or implementing anything.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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Shouldn't the quote then be, "Don't make a company memo on your philosophical musings because it's your work not your blog." Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Shouldn't the quote then be, "Don't make a company memo on your philosophical musings because it's your work not your blog." Abraham Lincoln

LOL!!!
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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I like that quote.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
The statement it too broad to make sense. Everything is criticized and everything is defended. To say that have a negative effect from a criticism is a direct threat to freedom is just stupid.

There must be a typo in the bolded part somewhere. Don't understand what you are trying to say...

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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Not a typo. I am a bad writer. Let me put it this way. We can't make fun of retarded babies so does that mean retarded babies rule us?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Not a typo. I am a bad writer. Let me put it this way. We can't make fun of retarded babies so does that mean retarded babies rule us?
In order to criticize the quote, you're removing all context. The right context is power structures, cultural, religious, government, etc. For cultural issues, think our various current 3rd rails....racism, sexism, gender identity, sexual preferences, man made global warming...there's all sorts of good examples that will get a person shouted down.

When I read the quote, thinking that it was Voltaire, I assumed that the context was pre-revolution France so directed at any number of the power-blocs of that time.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure why "science" is in quotes. From what I can tell his statements are backed up by science. There appears to be a side here that is the decidedly anti science but it isn't coming from James...


Below is link to an interview with Dr Jordan Peterson and James Damore. It starts slow but think once they get into talking about his actual document its informative. Worth a listen in my opinion. you can skip to the about the 24 min mark if you want to skip ahead to that part. first part of the interview is just some background on who his is, his educational background, how came to work for google, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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It is a terrible quote because it is just to broad to have meaning. I mean I own you because I am sure there is something you will criticize that will piss me off and you to me. It's just a cowardly statement, "If anyone holds me responsible for what I say then they are making me unfree and are poopy heads! "
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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What's all this hubris about? Jimmy the Greek.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
It is a terrible quote because it is just to broad to have meaning. I mean I own you because I am sure there is something you will criticize that will piss me off and you to me. It's just a cowardly statement, "If anyone holds me responsible for what I say then they are making me unfree and are poopy heads! "

We've got a disconnect. You are talking about the quote in the context of Google punishing. I'm talking about the quote in the context of culture, religion, government, etc doing the punishing.

Of course the quote has little value if applied to your employer. But that's not "ruling over you", that's a 2 party agreement for services and remuneration which can be terminated by either side at will.

Our culture has created sacred cows, ideas that are not to be criticized. It was our culture that punished the guy. Google was just the middleman.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Aug 9, 17 10:33
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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getcereal wrote:
As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Never trust quotes you find on the internet."

Bravo, Sir. Way to roll w/ it after taking the initial hit...
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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The quote is awful. Again it is so broad as to not have meaning. Quote me on this, The sun comes up in the morning and down in the evening.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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OneGoodLeg wrote:
getcereal wrote:
As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Never trust quotes you find on the internet."


Bravo, Sir. Way to roll w/ it after taking the initial hit...

Haha! Thanks, I also fixed the original title so now it's accurate :-)
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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"Given the facts and the gender breakdown at Google. One of two things must be true. Either Google massive company wide effort to diversify and hire more women have failed and the company's loving diversity team is in fact sexist keeping women disproportional out of most jobs of the company. Or Demore is on to something."



Or maybe this is all show, Google (which seems to be one step ahead) is a huge corporation ( Evil). They know everything James Demore wrote in his memo is spot on. But they see which way the PC wind is blowing. So they go over board on diversity on everything, knowing it is all about image (and so you don't get your ass sued). This will keep everyone off their backs even though there will always be a discrepancy in pay and hiring at Google.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Dirty Bottles] [ In reply to ]
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Dirty Bottles wrote:
Not sure why "science" is in quotes.

He's using constant references to "facts and reasons" as a shield. He claims to be using only facts and reason: "Only facts and reason can shed light on these biases" Which whenever I hear phrases like that I worry. Because when you're really using facts and reason, you don't need to announce it in advance and constantly remind everyone how factual you are.

But then he slips into totally unsubstantiated claims. He claims that Google has slipped into, "extreme and authoritarian elements of this ideology." But what are those? Having mandatory "unconscious bias training?" Or classes restricted only women or only men? Is that really "extreme and authoritarian?" I hate some mandatory training too, but come on.

He's also inconsistent. He claims a lack of "psychological safety." But then provides no real evidence of how Google is currently not "psychologically safe," except some classes and programs and his feeling like he's being ignored. He says men could be labeled "misogynistic" if they protest against these programs, but doesn't claim that he actually was. Or makes no real claim except his seemingly general claims of being ideologically marginalized.

So basically all this leftist bias makes him feel bad, and he wants to feel more safe. But one of his bullet points is that Google should "de-emphasize empathy."

So who cares about others' feelings - but my feelings - those are precious and need to be kept safe.

He's turning the tactics and rhetoric of the leftist agenda (e.g. studies on psychological safety, unconscious bias, etc) against the leftist agenda itself. Which is clever, but not a new tactic (for example the current claim of bias against Asians in Affirmative Action is using the tactics pioneered by the Civil Rights movement against the Civil Rights movement itself).

But underneath that all, I don't sense that this is an honest attempt at dialog. It's a venting session.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue Googles firing him kind of proves his point about "extreme and authoritarian elements"....but hey I guess they didn't bury him in a ditch behind headquarters so there is that.

But the science I was talking about was his discussion around gender differences, personality theory (as it relates to political preference), etc.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
The quote is awful. Again it is so broad as to not have meaning. Quote me on this, The sun comes up in the morning and down in the evening.

I think context is everything and your interpretation is clearly not applicable. Not sure why you are clinging to the 'too broad' objection, because it is pretty easy to understand the intended context and silly to drag out hyperbolic, hypothetical, and invalid analogies.

RangerGress has pretty much said as much, but I will take issue with one comment he made regarding the applicability of this quote in the workplace. I have been having a discussion with my 18YO son headed to college next week about the differences between starting your own business and working for yourself vs. working for someone else. I have a close friend that is a multi-millionaire after starting his own business 20 years ago. His son did the same in a completely different business and is also a millionaire at the age of 30. I contrasted these two stories with my own. I have been extremely successful and I can't argue with the income I have enjoyed, but I work for a corporation and have to answer to a hierarchy of bosses. I have seen many people in our organization that were not able to grasp the concept that they may live in a democracy, but they, more or less, work in a dictatorship. Now, it actually isn't as bad as it sounds in my company, but there is no question that there are limits to the notion of free speech when it comes to internal communications. Criticism of senior management based on personal opinions is not something that is spewed publicly without some self-censoring. So, I'd say my bosses, to a degree, 'rule over me', but I submit willfully for the benefits I enjoy as a result. I have seen a lot of people leave the company because they just can't take the 'corporate rat race' anymore. Essentially, they just don't want their lives to be ruled with respect to what they can say, when they come in to work, when they can take vacation, etc.

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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The quote doesn't make sense to me because who the hell says whatever they want and no on ever takes objection to it? What is the meaning of "not allowed to criticize"? That quote is simply an empty nothing. It sounds good as long as you don't think about it.
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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Popper - "We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

The echo chamber is intolerant. He was intolerant of their intolerance to other views. He got fired........

It is a view i have been coming round to over time that liberals are tolerant only as long as you agree with them
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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"It is a view i have been coming round to over time that liberals are tolerant only as long as you agree with them "

Very true but isn't that true of all groups?
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