I dated a very stunningly attractive black woman for three years who was originally from Ghana. Visiting Alabama, or any of the southern states for that matter, was never very high on our destination list.

There's always LA - Lower Alabama!

We moved to NC from DE around 2005. Now I grew up marginally in the South in a racist family so it wasn't particularly surprising to me, but being about 15 years removed from that environment at the time I had largely forgotten about it.

The first neighbor that spoke to us gave us the low down on all the neighbors and ended it with a warning to watch out for the niggers that lived in the trailer park down the road. This was an old lady probably in her 60s or early 70s. I guess she just figured us being white and all, we were down with it.

Just the first of number of encounters with this lovely person. Having a garden and compost pile eventually drove her to call the cops* on us and when she learned there was nothing wrong with us having those things, she built a six foot privacy fence to separate our properties which was just fine by us.

*This is when we learned that she had been the county dispatch person up until she retired a few years prior.

I dislike the sweeping brush of generalization just as much as I dislike racism and bigotry.

I spent part of the 80's as a kid and teen growing up in Greenville, South Carolina. Its a beautiful place and I have many fond memories but by the end of high school I realized that it was not the place for me to live and raise a family. Case in point: Bob Jones College was near by, and in those days (and until 2000) there was an actual BJC rule that students could not date / marry people of other races. When entering campus in 1989 to write the SAT I had to pass a guard booth. The guards had what looked like automatic rifles slung across their chests. I asked him what it was for - he answered chuckling, "to keep the n****** out."
The south may finally be rising economically but some of the backward social attitudes are still catching up to the modern world.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

While the open racism happened it was pretty rare, what we found more odd was the religiosity. It was pretty standard fare to be asked upon meeting someone and having any sort of prolonged conversation with them, which church you went to? It happened all the time. Nothing offensive about it or anything but it was weird to have to explain things, eventually we'd usually just say we don't go to church and leave it at that, which worked most of the time.

A couple of my colleagues were Catholics and found it strange how they were often treated down there.

We've lived in Maine since 2009 and no one has ever asked us the church question.

Because Mainers are Godless heathens.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yeah, in some circles there is an open hostility to any church/other Christian faith that isn't your own. One of my fond childhood memories is having my aunt tell me I'm going to Hell because I wasn't baptized the right way.

Supposedly Maine is the least religious state, not sure what that is based on but I hear it all the time.

But out of my 10 or so colleagues in the department who clearly are liberal leftists bent on the destruction of the American way given that I work at a University at least half attend "church" (although 2 are Jewish and 2 are lesbians, so they probably don't really count).

And I'd say about a quarter if not more of the local radio stations are religious.

I agree.

Growing up, our priests daughter was told by the minister's son of a different church that she wasn't welcome in heaven because of her religion.

No one should ever live in the south because it is racist. People should live in other parts of the country because racism doesn't exist there.

I have a friend who moved from Michigan to Georgia and has told me its "a lot different down here", referring to southern values. Not to say that there isn't racism, etc in northern states, because there certainly is, but you do get the impression that its a bit more prevalent in many parts (but not all parts) of the south. I've traveled in the deep south, but not ever lived there so can't really say. I understand that there are pockets of liberalism however.

No one should read my post and think that racism is the only issue keeping me from returning to the south. It is one of many.


Edit: I wish I had listed reasons other than racism in my original post... oh wait, I did... 😁

Some may think that me saying a 40% vote to maintain racial discrimination at a state level means we haven't reached an acceptable level of racial equality. Others may find that an acceptable level. I personally don't feel I'm painting with too broad a brush, but as I said, I am biased.

I haven't seen a recent county level census map, but in the mid 2000s there was not a county in the country other than in the south that had over a 25% African American population. I think that anyone who has lived only in 90% white areas has nothing to offer based on their experiences. It is entirely too easy and I think too engrained in us as humans to discriminate (rightfully or wrongly) to discriminate on appearance. I'll also say that Atl is one of the most diverse cities in the country

That's really incorrect. A whole lot of densely populated counties have over 25% African-American population (not to mention a large number of neighborhoods throughout the country).

No, it was correct. I still have the map.

Yes, you also mentioned political leanings and prevailing mentality -- what exactly do you mean by that?

I just get tired of this kind of crap. As a well educated, highly intelligent, wealthy person who lives in the south I get tired of people thinking we're a bunch of bumkins. It's a virtual guarantee that I'm smarter than you and richer than you, like 99%. And I'm socially pretty liberal, so we're not all racist Bible banger down here. There are racists everywhere. And people who have political leanings and prevailing mentalities that you don't like everywhere too. If you're happy somewhere else that's great. I fished in the Gulf today. It's warm here year-'round. I have friends coming to town this weekend and we're going to the beach and gonna catch some huge red snapper on my boat. And we're going to drink and have fun. And there's little traffic or crime and people are generally nice. This is a great place to live. If it's not for you that's fine, but you look ignorant striking an entire region of the country as uninhabitable for you because of what you recently read in a book coupled with your later realization that we are "backwards" down here. Your post, frankly, is insulting.

I've told this story before. I went to college with a black guy from Boston. He said that racism was far more pervasive in Boston than it was in Florida. He said that he experienced racism everyday in Boston.

Likewise, a lady from Philly told me that blacks were seldom given high level promotions at the navy base in Philly. They even had a hand signal that they used to denote that someone was black without having to say it out loud - which is what led to the conversation. She was talking about someone and used the hand signal, so I asked what it meant.

Pretty sure that elements from every race are racist - regardless of where they live.

Seems I've struck a nerve. We'll save the "smarter" "richer" comments to some other middle school penis measuring thread. But, you make my point for me by even bringing statements like that into the conversation. It would never occur to me (or the people I chose to surround myself with) to make some of the personal claims / statements concerning self worth you make (whether true or not). As a 45 year old retiree who focuses on coaching multiple sports teams for his daughter, being a room parent at her elementary school, and keeping my wife's house clean and meals prepared as she works full time and pursues her second doctorate, we probably measure success in life quite a bit differently. Fishing, boating, and drinking don't fall anywhere on my list of things to brag about or activities to look forward to. To each their own. For myself, I got all my major personal professional checks in the box during my 25 year career as a Marine infantryman and I'm still working on accomplishing all my personal athletic goals, in the spare time I have now after prioritizing my family's needs first. I'll start worrying about the family's financial state of affairs if my wife ever tells me to curtail the grocery spending or planning the family vaca's that we enjoy. We haven't gotten to that point yet...

As to my perceptions of life in the south, I can only comment on my opinions based on a life spent actually living in the states of Alabama, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Kentucky, and Virginia. Actual residence / observation in these states make up approximately 38 years of my life. I can safely say that I didn't run into too many of 'our' liberal ilk during those 38 years. My personal encounters were much more of the bible-thumping, NRA / GOP adherent, "I'm better than you because I have a nicer boat to catch red snapper from" than you, type people. Now, everyone in our great nation is certainly entitled to their opinions, philosophy, and way of life. And I actually dig respectful and mature interplay / debate among those of differing view points. However, my wife and I just chose not to settle down in the middle of all that when we finally do decide to grow up (whenever that may be). We also feel pretty comfortable that our decision is right for us, given our actual, real life experiences (her's are similar but not the exact same as mine). I have a hard time making the equation of large swaths of "generally nice" people solve when you input 40% vote to continue racial discrimination. That 40% isn't the whole story, in my analysis, its just very revealing of what I believe lives beneath the pretty exterior that some people display.

And maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my original post. My generally low opinion of the south isn't a "YOU people" opinion. Its an opinion of "why are WE this way". I may never move my family there, but this is a problem of WE not YOU. It is also not a new opinion based on a recent reading of a book. You missed the point of my OP. It only adds to my already existing opinion.

Quote:

No, it was correct. I still have the map.

No. Please look up Wayne/Baltimore City/Prince George's/Cuyahoga/Philadelphia/Bronx/Cook/Essex counties (2000 Census data). They are generally the most populous counties in their respective states. (see "Great Migration"). The percentage is anywhere from 27-45%. Admittedly, in the South some counties are 80% African-American. Here's a website:

http://censusviewer.com/county/MI/Wayne (Wayne County for example).


For a view of demographics by city, check here:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_African-American_populations#Select_cities_with_a_large_percentage_of_Black_or_African_American_people

Wayne County, Michigan is 40.5% Black
Lake County, IN is 25.9% Black
Essex County, NJ is 40.9% Black
Baltimore is an independent city, thus county level. It's 63% black.
Cook County, IL is a rounding error away at 24.8% black
Kings County, NY (aka Brooklyn) is 34.8% black
Bronx County, NY is 43.3% black

Respect.

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"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."

https://www.census.gov/...tlas/censr01-106.pdf

look at page 4 ( listed as page 39) of the .pdf

I'd add that those counties in the south that are majority black are low population rural counties.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

So you decided to live where you think it is best for you and you like it best. Ok.

Before you speak of your impression of people in Alabama and their racism, you need to establish some street cred first.

Tell us about the demographics of your life. What percentage of people on your phone address book are black? How many black people live on your street? What percentage of people with whom you interact socially are black? What volunteer work have you done this month to help poor black people?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

That pdf refutes your thesis. It shows the data I referenced, there are counties North of the South with more than 25% black population

edited based on scorpio's comment.

many of the counties in the South are rural black, but some also not. For example DeKalb (part of City of Atlanta) isn't. Population appx 700k. for what it is worth, Maryland would have been included in my "South" comment. i think the point remains the same though -- much of the country, especially west of the Mississippi river, is super-majority white. by default there will be different perceptions of race, and necessarily more interactions with people of other races.

scorpio, if i can find the map i have at home, i'll try to figure out how to post. maybe there is a slightly different definition of "black" to ferret out the dozen or so counties in the entire country that aren't in the south with greater than a 25% black population. certainly based on the information you posted you'll agree there are none greater than 50% anywhere in the country other than the south. for the sake of argument, i'll acknowledge that there may be a handful of counties with a black population greater than 25%, but my point is that it matters. people in Oregon who have always lived in Oregon don't have any standing to argue race relations based on experience.

MOP_Roy -- i wasn't trying to hijack your thread with demographic info, but i think demographics explain a lot of political/voting choices people make. i primarily vote democrat, so does my wife, live in suburban Georgia an hour from ATL. we struggle with the guns first/Jesus first/social concerns be damned attitude here as well. (acknowledging i'm broad brushing). but there are tremendous upsides. i don't criticize your "x"ing out the south. i do think though there would be plenty of places in the south where you'd now be comfortable -- especially on the coasts, florida, atlanta, the college towns, etc... the more urban areas and the areas where there has been an inflow of outsiders or college educated has changed attitude wise. that has an entirely different set of problems (see the geechee people being taxed out of their generationally owned land off the Georgia and South Carolina coasts for example).

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Look at what areas had real problems with red-lining and the like most recently, and the story of institutionalized racism gets a lot more real, and a lot more northern. I'm reminded of a quote from a great thinker: "I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals fuhlaming". I don't doubt many brown people prefer the more overt racist, to the subtle.

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edit to credit the phrase to Homer Simpson

Did you think you wouldn't? What was the point of your OP, other than to highlight your disdain for the south based on a vote that happened 17 years ago which you recently read in a book which reminded you why you don't like it down here? Your post comes across as if you think you're better than others, especially the others of us who live in the south. It's a ridiculous notion.

And as for your 40% number, I remember that vote and I wasn't proud of it. But in context, it's not like the rest of the nation felt all that differently about inter-racial marriage then. Google shows me that that 60/40 number was about the national average in 2000. You'll probably stay snuggled up in your outrage, but Alabama didn't vote any differently than the entire country may have.

http://www.gallup.com/...e-blacks-whites.aspx

Didn't realize I need to provide this forum with a list of "street cred" in defense of a family decision my wife and I have come to based off choosing not to live in a region of the world that we have actually ALREADY LIVED IN for almost four decades...

Demographics of my high school -60% black / 40% white small town public school. I was one of 2 white guys in the basketball program. Not team, the entire program (coaching staff, Varsity, JV, Frosh, and development teams). My wife works four days a week literally driving through medicaid serviced urban St Louis communities providing medical care to those in need (Ferguson was her a.m. service area yesterday, lots of substance abuse / addiction / mental illness, mostly black, 100% lower class / poverty level). The demographics in my early adult neighborhoods and phone book were determined by military service rank, so I had no real control over that. Lots of people from all flavors of backgrounds, from the junior-est enlisted to senior officer. Post retirement, lots of flavor in my current apartment phone book, its mostly medical students and young interns, I say about 40% of which are not American by birth, given the varied languages I hear and study groups I see in the lobby, at the pool, and walking their dogs. I've personally met white, black, Turk, Afghan, Japanese, and Korean that live in my complex. As I said previously, my father-in-law is black (as is our extended family).

The whole "do you have 'black' friends? question is a bit played.

Wdrhoads, understand your points. As a once die-hard conservative, GOP politics of the last 10-15 years have slowly driven me to the left. Although I have always considered myself a candidate voter (instead of party voter), I find myself identifying more with left positions and candidates (that's for another thread). People seem to have gotten the idea that I'm sitting here raging against the evils of racism and that is in itself the sole cause of my dislike of the south. It isn't. Again, I've spent almost all of my life there, with the exception of a few years in Cali, a few in Japan, and a few more in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is a whole laundry list of things that make my family not want to go there. State / Local officials who insist on flying rebel flags and the ten commandants on state / local government property, limitations what my wife is allowed to do professionally due to state medical requirements, the prevalence of truck nutz (and yes, I'm serious on this one), as you put it "Jesus / Gun first mentality", the dominance of the GOP and 'family values' (which loosely translates to me as Christian values forced down your throat). These are just a few that immediately pop to mind. I received my undergrad from Auburn so I'm very familiar with and like Atlanta. And I know there are great people and communities everywhere, the south included. However, when we look at things from the macro level and prioritize what's important to us as we raise our family, places in the south don't rise to the top of the list. I've lived there. For a LONG time. No desire to go back.

Why does everyone always use the word "outrage" when I post something in the LR? Disappointment in my fellow humans is more accurate. 17 years isn't that long ago (and any place is walking distance if you have the time). Honestly, in 2000, I was more worried about getting my platoon of Marines ready to go on deployment from North Carolina to the med, so I had no idea of voting issues on the ballot in Alabama. The point of my post was to use the LR as a place to vent my continued frustration on a human failing from MY OWN HOME STATE and in general. (realizing that in that statement, I am guilty of broad, sweeping, over-generalization) As to "not much different than any where else", since Alabama was literally the last to vote it off the books, the facts might lead one to make a different conclusion.

My translation: If you you're lucky/rich/intelligent enough, you can insulate yourself from the ilk that give the South a bad name and have no idea why people play the bumkin card when referring to it.

For me, its a numbers game. Do I want to put myself in a place where there is a 40% chance of experiencing overt racism? I know its statistically fallacious, but the basic idea applies. Do I want to do anything where there is a 40% of something undesirable happening? No. I have a lot of relatives in Pennsylvania's Appalachia region. Ill visit for funerals. Otherwise, I just cant deal with the willful ignorance and racism (e.g. In reference to my Chinese wife, there was repeated mention of "At least she's not a n****r"). Yes, there are pockets of enlightenment, but they are few and far between, at least geographically. To plop myself down in one of those areas and be insulted when its lumped in with the areas around it is just as dishonest as claiming the whole state is backwards.

Its like an oasis in the middle of the Sahara that gets pissed off because its lumped in with 'desert'.

Well all you have established so far is that you care so much for black people in Alabama that you want to trumpet that you'll never live there. Ok.

So you are in the St. Louis area. Lots of poor black communities there. What you doing for them?

Whining about an Alabama vote 17 years ago on the internet -- that's gonna change the world. But I guess it makes you feel good.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Whining about an Alabama vote was actually part of the title to the thread. It does actually make me feel better. Expressing my frustration goes a long way to reaching peace with an issue in my process. :)

As far as your continued insistence on my singular focus on racism as a reason I dislike the south / Alabama, I can only assume that you are either trolling or willfully ignoring the rest of my posts where I go into other personal family calculus. Either way, you win and your next "gotcha post" to me will be the end of our exchange. Thanks for the help

I don't know but if "everyone" takes your posts the same way maybe it's you and not them.

Most of your reply was a deflection from the issue. I basically showed you that the thing you were outraged about in Alabama was pretty much the tenor of the entire nation at the time. You shoulda just said "oops" with a blushy face emoji. Lots of states have antiquated laws on the books that they don't bother to remove because they are trumped by federal law. The only way to change a law in Alabama is to amend the constitution. It's cumbersome. People don't like doing it. In fact, I know people (with whom I disagree) who voted no on this because they thought it unnecessary because the federal law on this was 30 years old already at the time and they hate seeing any amendments to the constitution on the ballot. I didn't like their vote because I thought it would give ignorant people a reason to throw darts at us unnecessarily if a lot of people voted no.

Apparently you live near St Louis. I could probably make lots of generalized criticisms about that, but why would I, unless I just wanted to be a dick?

Well as you can see, you'd have had to leave the country to escape that number in 2000, statistically speaking.

To your google stat, I would offer while it is a relevant data point, the fact that Alabama still had the law on the books (instead of an underlying personal opinion in some percentage of the population) is meaningful. Racism is everywhere (I saw my first live kkk group in full regalia in 1992 in Maryland of all places) but not having it ingrained in our legal system is a good start. Dinosaurs along with their outdated beliefs all die eventually.

As to disparaging St Louis, the wife and I do it almost daily. We live in the city and the crime, the food, the drivers are all horrible for starters. Like anywhere, we have our pockets of goodness, great school and school community for the munchin, easy access to a great park / running groups, and a job that my wife loves. We've promised our daughter five years here until we pack it up and move again. Hence our constant conversations about where we go next.

I've lived in the deep South, Savannah, GA. for >20yrs. I'm socially liberal, but a fical conservative. That makes me either a Blue Dog Dem or a libertarian.

The only time I ever saw a racist white person was an Army guy who'd immigrated with his parents from Rhodesia. The government had taken their family farm and given it to the locals, who promptly destroyed it.

IMO, we worry way too much about racism. Racism has been the norm since the 2nd human village 100k yrs ago. In our life times, but only in the minority of the planet known as "western culture" we've decided that (white) racism was ugly and had to go. In a very short time white racism has gone from perfectly acceptable, to the most vile epithet of our day.

The success of our small experiment, small both in terms of duration (vs. 100k yrs) and geographical region (western culture only) was/is a tremendous achievement. One that we should be very proud of. But instead, whitey is constantly berated as a racist. Any perceived slight, no matter how ludicrous, is fair grounds for whitey to be called a racist. We've made it the "goto" complaint against whites, and it's wearisome.

What I've seen, day after day, decade after decade, is whitey being excruciatingly not-racist. Whitey has event invented an odd contest where we sometimes try to out-do the other in expressions of, not just non-racism, but anti-racism.

We're never going to completely beat racism. It's too fundamentally human. But what we've done, by making racism completely intolerable in polite circles, is pretty darn awesome. At what point tho, are we going to call the fight against racism "largely a success"? Is it necessary that we find the last redneck in the last single-wide and demand that he sees things our way? Or can we accept that the redneck has the right, the freedom, to have his own dark shitty racist worldview.

Go to Mexico and see how the Mexicans with no Spanish heritage are treated. Go to any oriental country and see how the foreigners are treated. Anyone that complains about racism in our country needs to take a hard look at their measuring stick. Compared to any reasonable measure, meaning other epochs or countries, we've been fabulously successful at making whitey less racist.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Yes, it is when that is the case of any perceived slight. Let's not forget the fact that, as you point out, racism has existed for a hell of a long time and we've only went all-in on addressing it over the last ~60ish years. Overcoming the weight of history is a weight that takes a while to move. There's resistance to it. We see it in things like the OP's point about mixed-race marriage laws still being on the books as recently as 17 years ago. We see it in cultural stereotypes that take generations to die off, stereotypes that most all of us have heard or grown up around, hoping that our children, grandchildren, and beyond can see the majority of those buried. We see it in things like incarceration rates today and laws that, purposefully or coincidentally, have adversely impacted minority populations. We saw it in the way the FHA redlined minorities from home ownership, a blow to generational wealth that takes generations to overcome, something white folks haven't experienced.

There has been improvement. And quickly. That's incredible to see, incredible to live through.

And racism still lives on and always will to a degree, not being limited to just the white folks. But as white people we cannot go without acknowledging that we've been in charge of Western society for as long as it's existed; we've held the power and with that have come certain privileges which take time to even out, and that evening out cannot be undone in 60 years of effort when there are still living hearts and minds who advanced awful forms of racism, so the changing of hearts and minds overall comes with generational death and then more changes to systematic structures.


You're right, though, that we'll never completely beat it. I don't think anyone expects that to be the case. If there's one thing that unites all of us as humans, it's that we're all going to struggle in some way, have pain in our own ways, and die. What most of us can do a better job of as white people is recognizing and acknowledging that some people experience a pain and struggle so different than our own simply by a thing they cannot control and while we're being much better and more successful about that as a society we cannot say that our efforts are over and that it's "good enough." Before we can say we've really succeeded, I think we need to be in a place where the history we're teaching about racial justice no longer has surviving perpetrators of the deep injustices and is yet further a couple of generations removed from them.

Above and beyond our discussion about Alabama, I am grateful for your service to our country. Thank you.

Now, turning to your comments about Alabama:


Now did I strike a nerve? ;)


Ok. So you have a number of reasons for disliking Alabama, and I'm glad you are somewhere where you are happier. But the primary reason you gave in your OP for disliking Alabama was racism.

I was not trolling you, but was trying to determine whether when it comes to suffering of black people in the south you are a doer or a talker. Moving away from a troubled area to a place where things are nicer is not necessarily a noble action. Yes, with these questions and statements, I'm calling to question your character. Perhaps that is uncalled for and is just poor behavior as a result of my living in backwards, bible-thumping, NRA, I-have-a-nicer-boat-than-you Alabama.

Further, it is simply not true in the year 2000, or today, that 40% of Alabamians are opposed to inter-racial marriage. First, you need to specify what percentage of the populace voted in that election? (Answer, about 15% of registered voters voted no.) I don't ) Second, research what percentage of Alabamians vote "NO" reflexively on constitutional amendments without even reading them in Alabama (there are several or as many as a dozen on every ballot)? (This was pointed out by SL.) I haven't researched it but I don't recall any amendments getting a supermajority vote.

Certainly some Alabamians are racist. However, this one vote does not prove that they are more racist than other states. Also, keep in mind that Missouri was one of the states that still banned inter-racial marriage at the time of the Supreme Court Loving decision.

But if you, or anyone, is concerned about the plight of black people in Alabama, you can come visit me in Birmingham. I can put you in touch with a small group of people that provide food, clothing, and youth activities next to a public housing project. The mostly retired volunteers are about 65% white/35% black. The recipients of the services are 95% black. Volunteers are always needed.

Maybe after a couple days you'd get a different impression of people and race relations in Alabama and the south. Maybe not. But you'd be doing something to help suffering people.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Imo the folks that obsess over whitey being racist are killing the black community. The black male is failing. College graduation rates are lower then incarceration rates by what, an order of magnitude?

35% of black kids suspended or expelled (age 7-12). http://www.naacp.org/...-justice-fact-sheet/
25-30% of black males will spend time behind bars. The precise # depends on the source you use.

I remember a quote from Jesse Jackson where he expressed his relief that, while walking down a dark urban street, that the foot steps behind him turned out to be a white guy.

>10yrs ago we had a nanny for a couple years for 2 infants and a toddler. Years after we'd gone our separate ways, she invited us to her 50th birthday party. Black tie. Our table, all 5 of us, was the only white folks there in this filled banquet hall. Black woman after black woman took the podium and spoke. It was really an eye opener. I heard story after story of strong black women holding the family together because of absent husbands, problem sons, and then problem grandsons. It was stirring.

Imo the black community, particularly the black male, is in crisis and it's not going to be fixed until they quit blaming whitey for their struggles. It's not whitey that is destroying the black family. Well, except for the entirely predictable damage that the well-intended government handouts caused. Oh, and another thing to lay at whitey's feet. Every white person that wrings their hands re. the burdens that racism imposes on the black community is complicit in their problems. Those folks are killing the black community with their ill-considered sympathy.

The only way the black community is going to fix themselves is with a big dose of personal responsibility. Parents need to focus on the values that they imprint in their kids, and the parents need to send those kids to school with the idea that if they don't excel, it will be their ass when they get home. Those kids need to go to school with the same attitudes as little Jewish kids where they know they are expected to do their very best and enter professional careers.

No, I'm not Jewish. What I am is white. And therefore I can't safely say anything in public because anything that could possibly POSSIBLY be construed as criticism, immediately brands you a racist. Because it's always racism. It's always external forces. It's really easy to tell the difference between the folks that want to just feel good about themselves, vs. the folks that really want to help the black community. The former talk about racism, the latter talk about personal responsibility.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

You can just end your diatribe there. The deck is stacked against all sorts of folks, and you can lump in working class rural folks in the same boat. The game is played a certain way, and folks with less capital (monetary as well as educational) are economically and geographically frozen out of paths towrd upward mobility.

I don't agree that the deck is stacked against anyone in the U.S. People make horrible decisions and then compound them by making even worse decisions. If you graduate high school, don't have a baby until you're an adult and don't commit criminal acts your chances of living in poverty are extremely slim.
There are plenty of non white groups doing exceedingly well in this country. East Indian, Asian etc. So it's not skin color that's holding people back.

Black immigrants come here from Africa and the Caribbean and kick ass and take names all the time. It's not about the color of your skin. Get one of those recent immigrants talking about American blacks and they'll be so harsh that you, raised in a culture where speaking poorly of blacks is a serious offense, will feel so uncomfortable you'll want to get up and walk away.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Since I started this thread with an example of state constitutionally mandated form of racial discrimination (arguably one example of deck stacking) and 40% of a ballot supporting this position 17 years ago, would you accept that some might not believe repeal of this specific instance removed the last piece of institutional bias against minorities (chose your flavor) from our books and that we're not yet to the place where "just work harder" will rise everyone out of poverty? I'm not asking you to agree with that position, but just acknowledge how a logical personal might not be able to automatically agree with yours?.

Edit (add): Pulling back the stick to the poverty piece (regardless of color), my wife and I were discussing this as I made her lunch this morning. She immediately brought up the fact that a lot of her clients on Section 8 housing (government subsidized) have wanted to go to college (think local community / vocational training, not big nationally recognized state schools) but won't because they would lose their Section 8 eligibility. Don't want to dis-rail the conversation on the pro/cons of that particular policy (both sides of the argument I can see merit in), but it is another example of a how some of her clients feel they have to decide between housing and education (upward mobility) re: institutional bias potentially deterring improvements in the life of poverty populations.

Your posts in this thread are, frankly, odd. I can only assume you are willfully ignoring some of the things Roy has written to fit your preconceived narrative. You accused him of having a nerve triggered when I think he has responded incredibly calmly to your bizarre posts.

Anyway, beyond that, you clearly don't understand statistics very well. If 40% vote NO to something, but it was only 15% of the total population, that does not mean that only 15% of the population feels that way. Think of the vote as a poll. Even a poll of 1000, if gathered well, will very accurately depict the entire population's view. So yes, it is safe to say that in the 2000 close to 40% of the population of AL was against interracial marriage. Indeed, it may have been higher, if there were people who chose not to vote because they thought there was no point (ie. the law would be changed regardless of their vote), or those who would feel embarrassed to admit their vote.

And even though ONLY 64% of the entire US population was in favor of interracial marriage in the year 2000 (according to the chart posted earlier), that does not mean that 36% were against it. The remaining 36% likely included many who were agnostic to the issue and would certainly not have voted to maintain anti-interracial marriage laws.

You should read this book.

Let us not forget Alabama was the state that performed the Syphilis Study which didn't end until 1972. Hell Mengele didn't have shit on those MFing white Alabama doctors. 1972 wasn't that long ago either.

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"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."

Are you aware of what goes on in supposedly enlightened places like New York City? And not 40 years ago, but today. NYC had a parade last month in which the man of honor was the head of a domestic terrorist organization. He ran a group that set bombs off in the city. He murdered New Yorkers and now New York is honoring him. He remains unapologetic about his crimes.
We have a state legislator and former city councilman who boasted, while in office, about how he wanted to assault whites. His district has kept him in office for 2 decades.
Such is the racial politics of NYC. Good luck finding a place without idiots.

I had no idea that Nelson Mandela was in the US!

Good lord, man. The US government was conducting that study, not "Alabama." And it was in Tuskegee, home of the Tuskegee Airmen, Tuskegee University, Booker T Washington, and George Washington Carver. But by all means put the most negative slant on it as possible. There has been so much misinformation and negative bias in this thread that hardly any of it is more than personal opinion being hidden in "facts" that aren't real. The number of people against interracial marriage in Alabama in 2000 reflected that of the rest of the nation, marlin kill tournaments aren't more prevalent in the south, and "Alabama" didn't conduct the Syphilis experiment. I don't care if you don't like it down here, not everyone can live here. I do mind when you basically tell lies to make the south look backwards.

For the record, NYC isn't on our list of places to look at either :) Although I would like to visit there and do the typical tourist things once.

All places, North, South, Mid-West, East, West have idiots and also many good people doing good things. I'll keep visiting the south everyone once in a while, can't miss the Iron Bowl for almost any reason, but at the end of the day, each person / family makes their own decisions based on their own calculus. I'll always be "from the South" since I grew up there and spent the majority of my life (to this point) there. I just probably won't ever move my family back there permanently. There's always a shot (one son really wants to attend UNC and another wants to go to Auburn like mom and dad did and there's always the chance my wife gets 'that' job offer), but generally my wife and I look to other places when we talk about the future. As I'm sure other families look to where they feel they would feel most comfortable, using whatever metric is important to them.

Your comments minimize what those white Al doctors did to poor black men. Yes they were Alabama doctors. They lived there, raised their families there, went to church there. All the while letting black men carry Syphilis for the rest of their lives even while Penicillin was a known cure at the time. How many of those black men passed the disease on to other black women? How many children were born with infant defects and sicknesses. How can you minimize the utter havoc white Alabama doctors inflicted on the black population in Alabama? That was one of the most horrific medical studies in history. And yes it happened in Alabama by white doctors.

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"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."

Regardless of the other issues in this thread, I find it ironic that you complain about false facts, and then give a false fact.

See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor, but that does not mean 36% were against.

Beyond that I think Roy makes perfectly valid points. There is racial and religious bigotry everywhere, but he finds it to be more prevalent in AL compared to other places he's lived. He's saying it's based on his own experiences, but he's also citing evidence that points to it. Yes, different parts of this country and every country may have issues of intolerance, and some more than others. Some want to be surrounded by like-minded people. A friend of mine who lives in NY is currently staying with her family in AL and dealing with religious intolerance against her by her family. She is a beautiful, loving, kind person and yet because she is not going to church and being fully Christian, her family thinks she has the devil inside her (her father actually said that to her last night). It's very sad. Clearly one can't extrapolate from one example, but let's be real, there is plenty of that kind of attitude in the south, and if Roy prefers not to live somewhere that those attitudes are very prevalent (and saying "very prevalent" is different to painting everyone with the same brush), that's his prerogative.

And what percent in Alabama was willing to say they were in favor of it? I'll hang up and listen ................

I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 64%.

I'm not sure how my saying it was the US government and not the state of Alabama which conducted that study minimizes its horrific nature. The people in charge of the study weren't from Alabama and many who conducted it, including the head nurse, were black.

The crux is that 40% were so opposed that they were willing to support legal action against inter-racial marriages. That is categorically different from merely expressing a personal opinion. Comparing the two different scenarios is engaging in a false equivalence.

You couldn't bring yourself to say it was 60%, huh?

There were also Jewish people who helped Nazis send there own neighborhoods to concentrate camps. It doesn't lessen this evil put upon by white doctors in Alabama. The fact the you could even write that the head nurse speaks volumes about your feelings to this evil. I'd respect you if you said that was a fucked up time in Alabama's history period. But instead you and the other poster who goes on about black personal responsibility show how a significant percentage of the white population can't own up to the evils that your people did to black throughout US history. I visited Berlin a couple of years ago. The Germans do not try and sweep under the rug their evil period in history. There's so many monuments that remind them of the horrors of the Nazis and what they did to the Jewish people. And they're a better people for it. South Africa had the Truth and Reconciliation apartheid committes, and their a better people for it. Maybe America could learn from them.

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"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."

It was an absolutely fucked up thing that this COUNTRY did. You seem to take comfort that it happened in a small town in Alabama as if it was not a national study conducted by our nation's government. I don't think anyone feels good about what happened there, but blaming it on "white Alabama doctors" is bullshit.

I guess you're missing the point. 40% of AL were against it, to the point of being willing to go out and cast a ballot, while among the 36% of the nation who, in a poll, did not tick the box saying they supported interracial marriage, many were likely without a strong opinion. How were the questions presented, were there only two options...? If, say, those 'agnostics' were another 10%, that takes the number nationally to 74% who were not AGAINST interracial marriage.

I'm not missing any point at all. 60% of AL were for it, to the point of being willing to go out and cast a ballot, while among 64% of the nation who, in a poll, only had to tick a box saying they supported interracial marriage, many were likely without a strong opinion. Just that easy.

Now, wow me with your knowledge of Alabama's state constitution, what is required to amend it, how that affects people's voting behavior, etc. and tell me how you think that may have affected the results of that ballot item to the negative. Tell me how the issue polled in Alabama and WHY people voted against it. How many people vote against EVERY amendment in Alabama.

And I'll re-state that I lived here and voted in favor of that amendment and was pissed that it didn't pass 100 to 0. But to use the 60/40 vote as some kind of evidence for saying Alabama is backwards and racist is unfair.

Opportunity in this country is wildly unequal, and becoming more so in past couple of decades. Social mobility (up or down) lags behind many other countries. Examples abound. It is certainly possible to overcome this inequality on an individual basis, mostly via geographical relocation (which has generally led to a lower opportunity environment for those who remain). Being relentlessly and blindly "bootstrappy" (nod to trail) is not a replacement for sober analysis and honest policy re-evaluation.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/...ps://www.google.com/

I was curious (and bored as my boys explore a local St Louis activity center) so I got my google-fu on to see what you referenced. Personally, it seems to me to be very poor form to celebrate this particular individual and apparently that feeling was shared by local and state officials as well as usual parade sponsors (who pulled their sponsorship) and among a large number of the local population as well. Reading this singular article on the issue leads me to believe there was more than a little push back to honoring him.

I continue to contend that the 40% number is misleading. Furthermore, I contend that in terms of percentage, MORE Alabama citizens are in favor interracial marriage than "64% the entire US population."


As you admit, the poll must be gathered well. Both SL and I have explained why a vote on an Alabama Constitutional Amendment is a poor poll methodology. Please research this matter. There are plenty of legal and political science articles that discuss this matter. Just to give you an idea, last November there were 14 Constitutional Amendments on the ballot. I did not read or vote on any. Over the years, I've been told by people that they just vote NO on all amendments.

I contend that closer to 67% of Alabamians favor interracial marriage and that only 21% are opposed. From a 2012 poll:


2012 Public Policy Polling, Alabama Survey Results, Q. 24.

I understand statistics. I provided the 15% vote number because in this thread there was continual references to 40% vote. I agree that in certain cases it may be reasonable to view a vote as a poll. In this case it is not.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I have a Masters of Science in Systems Analysis, a large portion of which was statistics and multi-variate regressions, so I tend to be very specific in my word choice when I refer to numbers. So in the attempt to be completely accurate, my first statement (bolded above) I believe was in fact an accurate description of the event which drew my alleged "outrage". I will admit to a bit of loose-ness with my language in my second statement (again bolded again) so for that, my apologies.

With regard to who voted and who didn't, that particular piece of semantics is not that important to me because I actually care about the WHAT the people that VOTED say. For example, I don't care about the opinions of those individuals who chose not to vote in our Presidential elections, what I care about is how many votes each candidate receive from those who did vote. That number (as it is translated into electoral votes) gives me a President. I care about what actual voters who vote think; they are the ones whose decisions matter.