http://www.politico.com/...ates-rankings-235149
I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
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Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
tigermilk wrote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149 I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
That list is idiotic. I'd love to see how they went about making that list. LBJ as 10th best?? Seriously? And JFK is routinely overrated.
___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
There are quite a few Presidents I'm largely unfamiliar with but here's my
comments relative to the rankings...
Overrated list:
Dwight Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Teddy Roosevelt
Jimmy Carter
Underrated list:
Bill Clinton
Ronald Reagan
George Bush (the 1st)
I'd probably lower Barak Obama a little to top half, but not top third.
I'd better post this now before I start waffling.
comments relative to the rankings...
Overrated list:
Dwight Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Teddy Roosevelt
Jimmy Carter
Underrated list:
Bill Clinton
Ronald Reagan
George Bush (the 1st)
I'd probably lower Barak Obama a little to top half, but not top third.
I'd better post this now before I start waffling.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [spot]
[ In reply to ]
spot wrote:
tigermilk wrote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149 I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
That list is idiotic. I'd love to see how they went about making that list. LBJ as 10th best?? Seriously? And JFK is routinely overrated.
LBJ was kind of a bad-ass. He achieved a lot.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [SH]
[ In reply to ]
SH wrote:
spot wrote:
tigermilk wrote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149 I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
That list is idiotic. I'd love to see how they went about making that list. LBJ as 10th best?? Seriously? And JFK is routinely overrated.
LBJ was kind of a bad-ass. He achieved a lot.
Yeah, a war that he hamstrung with stupid ROE that killed 58,000 Americans and a legacy of entitlement spending that is eating the budget. Not a fan.
___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
After Trump moves to #1, Obama will fall to 13th, so no need to worry.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [spot]
[ In reply to ]
spot wrote:
SH wrote:
spot wrote:
tigermilk wrote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149 I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
That list is idiotic. I'd love to see how they went about making that list. LBJ as 10th best?? Seriously? And JFK is routinely overrated.
LBJ was kind of a bad-ass. He achieved a lot.
Yeah, a war that he hamstrung with stupid ROE that killed 58,000 Americans and a legacy of entitlement spending that is eating the budget. Not a fan.
And supposedly not a racist despite using the n word readily.
"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
Just a quick look, but no way Obama beats Clinton and Reagan is way way overrated.
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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.
- Chinese proverb
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [SH]
[ In reply to ]
SH wrote:
spot wrote:
tigermilk wrote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/all-time-best-president-united-states-rankings-235149 I'd like what they're smoking. No way he breaks the top half IMO.
That list is idiotic. I'd love to see how they went about making that list. LBJ as 10th best?? Seriously? And JFK is routinely overrated.
LBJ was kind of a bad-ass. He achieved a lot.
I rate him as probably one of the worst presidents of all time.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [SH]
[ In reply to ]
Were it not for Ross Perot taking 19 percent of vote Clinton would have lost which changes history a fair bit.
comments relative to the rankings...
Overrated list:
Dwight Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Teddy Roosevelt
Jimmy Carter
Underrated list:
Bill Clinton
Ronald Reagan
George Bush (the 1st)
I'd probably lower Barak Obama a little to top half, but not top third.
I'd better post this now before I start waffling.
They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot
SH wrote:
There are quite a few Presidents I'm largely unfamiliar with but here's my comments relative to the rankings...
Overrated list:
Dwight Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Teddy Roosevelt
Jimmy Carter
Underrated list:
Bill Clinton
Ronald Reagan
George Bush (the 1st)
I'd probably lower Barak Obama a little to top half, but not top third.
I'd better post this now before I start waffling.
They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [len]
[ In reply to ]
Were it not for Ross Perot taking 19 percent of vote Clinton would have lost which changes history a fair bit. //
What makes you think this? I know in Ca here, myself and a bunch of my friends all voted for Perot, Clinton as the 2nd choice. Perhaps in other parts of the country it was different, but how do you know Bush would have won without Perot? And of course you are just now playing a game you cannot know the answer to like what would it be like if the Supreme Court had one more liberal on it in 2000, or Kennedy had not been shot?
What makes you think this? I know in Ca here, myself and a bunch of my friends all voted for Perot, Clinton as the 2nd choice. Perhaps in other parts of the country it was different, but how do you know Bush would have won without Perot? And of course you are just now playing a game you cannot know the answer to like what would it be like if the Supreme Court had one more liberal on it in 2000, or Kennedy had not been shot?
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [windywave]
[ In reply to ]
I've heard discussions of this. One key point was effectiveness. There is no doubt obama was effective despite so called obstruction. You can also be effective at passing legislation and laws that destroy America. Both LBJ and Obama excelled at that.
"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
W at 33 is a fucking joke.
Carter at 26 is even more of a fucking joke.
Swap the two, at least.
Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Carter at 26 is even more of a fucking joke.
Swap the two, at least.
Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [TheForge]
[ In reply to ]
"You can also be effective at passing legislation and laws that destroy America."
i was between the ages of 7 and 11 when the following legislation was passed:
- special education in public schools for kids with learning disabilities
- head start
- medicare
- medicaid
- school breakfast program
- food stamps
- civil rights act
- voting rights act
- national endowment for the arts
- corporation for public broadcasting
- HUD
- mass transit act (wash metro, SF bart, etc.)
- truth in packaging and lending
- fair housing act
any of that you like? (and, it's 52 years and counting, is america ruined yet?)
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
i was between the ages of 7 and 11 when the following legislation was passed:
- special education in public schools for kids with learning disabilities
- head start
- medicare
- medicaid
- school breakfast program
- food stamps
- civil rights act
- voting rights act
- national endowment for the arts
- corporation for public broadcasting
- HUD
- mass transit act (wash metro, SF bart, etc.)
- truth in packaging and lending
- fair housing act
any of that you like? (and, it's 52 years and counting, is america ruined yet?)
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [CaptainCanada]
[ In reply to ]
CaptainCanada wrote:
Just a quick look, but no way Obama beats Clinton and Reagan is way way overrated.Maybe as a Canuck you don't know a lot about what Reagan inherited. The mess after Vietnam, Watergate, Carter, the country was a freaking mess. I may not agree with some of what Reagan did but if a President's main job is to leave the country in better shape than it was when you took office, Reagan goes down as top 10 easily.
Obama, way overrated by not surprising based on who is doing the voting. I do think George HW Bush is under rated and I'm ok with where Clinton and GW Bush rank. JFK will always be over rated by the same academics who over rate Obama. Carter? The guy should be bottom 10. Worst, absolute worst President in my lifetime that begins with LBJ. I would rank Ford, even Nixon over Carter. The guy was a disaster and his 4 years are the reason I'm not worried about Trump ruining America. If we could survive Jimmy we can survive Trump.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
"You can also be effective at passing legislation and laws that destroy America." i was between the ages of 7 and 11 when the following legislation was passed:
- special education in public schools for kids with learning disabilities - fine with that.
- head start - Garbage
- medicare - fine
- medicaid - if this worked so well, why did we need obamacare?
- school breakfast program - garbage.
- food stamps - Not the job of the federal gov't and like HUD perpetuate some problems.
- civil rights act - Fine with that.
- voting rights act - Fine with that.
- national endowment for the arts - BS, not appropriate for federal funding.
- corporation for public broadcasting
- HUD - abysmal failure in its original incarnation, the HUD today resembles the HUD of Johnson in no way. Cabrini green vs privately funded projects that weed out criminals to a much greater extent. Lets also remember, HUD among other systems perpetuated the single black mother.
- mass transit act (wash metro, SF bart, etc.) You mean the systems that largely run on a deficit.
- truth in packaging and lending - Do you think this made it any easier for people to understand loans? I guess the housing crunch of 2006-2008 shouldn't or didn't happen.
- fair housing act - Mixed about this. On the one hand, a black person and a white person with equal credit should be judged equally. That portion I agree with, however, it perpetuated quotas to grant loans to people who should never be loaned money under the guise of equality, but OK.
any of that you like? (and, it's 52 years and counting, is America ruined yet?)
OK, you just proved you can't discuss this stuff, so I'm not going to bother beyond this pithy post. Many of these are well documented failures or had severe unintended consequences. Many designed to combat poverty, perpetuated it. You really should do your research, or has living in California convinced you these were good things?
I would say some of these things ruined America more than trump possibly could.
"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [TheForge]
[ In reply to ]
They were really well intentioned, though. Doesn't that count for anything?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [TheForge]
[ In reply to ]
"medicaid - if this worked so well, why did we need obamacare?"
what some folks here (righties) pointed out, and i think what these folks have said is probably true, that all the very best outcomes of obamacare are due to the medicaid expansion. assuming this is so i guess i'd just have to agree that it's not only good, but good enough to expand. (obviously to a point.)
"mass transit act (wash metro, SF bart, etc.) You mean the systems that largely run on a deficit."
i don't think all programs have to earn money. does defense earn money? i don't think the national park service has to earn money. some of LBJ's programs you like don't earn money. it would be nice if they earned money.
"- truth in packaging and lending - Do you think this made it any easier for people to understand loans? I guess the housing crunch of 2006-2008 shouldn't or didn't happen."
i'm so glad you brought this up! but it's a subject for another time. to answer your question, i think we have a lot farther to go. there's always a lot of corporate pushback. should disclosures in a radio ad be sped up so fast no one can possibly understand them?
"OK, you just proved you can't discuss this stuff,"
aren't we discussing it now?
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
what some folks here (righties) pointed out, and i think what these folks have said is probably true, that all the very best outcomes of obamacare are due to the medicaid expansion. assuming this is so i guess i'd just have to agree that it's not only good, but good enough to expand. (obviously to a point.)
"mass transit act (wash metro, SF bart, etc.) You mean the systems that largely run on a deficit."
i don't think all programs have to earn money. does defense earn money? i don't think the national park service has to earn money. some of LBJ's programs you like don't earn money. it would be nice if they earned money.
"- truth in packaging and lending - Do you think this made it any easier for people to understand loans? I guess the housing crunch of 2006-2008 shouldn't or didn't happen."
i'm so glad you brought this up! but it's a subject for another time. to answer your question, i think we have a lot farther to go. there's always a lot of corporate pushback. should disclosures in a radio ad be sped up so fast no one can possibly understand them?
"OK, you just proved you can't discuss this stuff,"
aren't we discussing it now?
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
vitus979 wrote:
They were really well intentioned, though. Doesn't that count for anything?I guess. See that's the difference between liberals and conservatives. We demand results, and when something fails you end it or overhaul it. The intention is what matters, and when it fails, a double dose of intentions are how you fix it.
"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [TheForge]
[ In reply to ]
"See that's the difference between liberals and conservatives. We demand results, and when something fails you end it or overhaul it."
it's the difference between pragmatists and ideologues.
sam brownback took a very un-LBJ approach for his state. well-intentioned. didn't pan out.
i agree with you. if something's not working, fix it. get rid of it. overhaul it. replace it. i can think of a number of things i'd be very happy to see republicans overhaul about the ACA.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
it's the difference between pragmatists and ideologues.
sam brownback took a very un-LBJ approach for his state. well-intentioned. didn't pan out.
i agree with you. if something's not working, fix it. get rid of it. overhaul it. replace it. i can think of a number of things i'd be very happy to see republicans overhaul about the ACA.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
"medicaid - if this worked so well, why did we need obamacare?" what some folks here (righties) pointed out, and i think what these folks have said is probably true, that all the very best outcomes of obamacare are due to the medicaid expansion. assuming this is so i guess i'd just have to agree that it's not only good, but good enough to expand. (obviously to a point.)
"mass transit act (wash metro, SF bart, etc.) You mean the systems that largely run on a deficit."
i don't think all programs have to earn money. does defense earn money? i don't think the national park service has to earn money. some of LBJ's programs you like don't earn money. it would be nice if they earned money.
"- truth in packaging and lending - Do you think this made it any easier for people to understand loans? I guess the housing crunch of 2006-2008 shouldn't or didn't happen."
i'm so glad you brought this up! but it's a subject for another time. to answer your question, i think we have a lot farther to go. there's always a lot of corporate pushback. should disclosures in a radio ad be sped up so fast no one can possibly understand them?
"OK, you just proved you can't discuss this stuff,"
aren't we discussing it now?
No, we're not. Have a nice day.
"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [monty]
[ In reply to ]
I got the idea that Clinton loses without Perot from Paul Johnson's book, "A history of the American People" Looking into it further it looks like exit pools showed democrats and republicans equally likely to support Perot. So you win on that one. It surprises me because Johnson wasn't that hot on Bush 1. Maybe he got the idea from Bush himself as I understand he knew both Bush and Thatcher. I do stand by my assertion history would have been different. Saying history would be different says nothing about whether that is a positive or negative outcome.
They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot
They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [tigermilk]
[ In reply to ]
Trump claims he "inherited a mess." That's obviously a load. Obama, on the hand, inherited the very definition of a mess. The turn around we saw, as evidenced by almost every measurable we can consider, was nearly miraculous. A president can't take all the credit for what happens over eight years, obviously, but he has to get a lot and I would put him in the upper third.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [DieselPete]
[ In reply to ]
I don't know how I would rate Obama. Rating presidents seems pretty hard. He sure inherited a mess but it seemed the solution was to rack up enormous debt. My understanding is America has 20 trillion of federal debt. Assuming maybe 100 million Americans pay any significant federal income tax that is 200,000 of unsecured debt per tax paying American. Then you add in unfunded liabilities it all gets scary. On the other hand what kind of carnage do you get if you don't bail the whole thing out? Presidents also have to work with or against congress. One of the knocks against Reagan was that he increased federal debt significantly but he had to give something up to get the tax cuts ie not cut spending. LBJ was in power during an expansion of civil rights but it seems the war on poverty was lost. I like Reagan. When he took the Presidency America sure seemed discouraged and when he left things sure seemed to be lifted up.
They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot
They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [DieselPete]
[ In reply to ]
DieselPete wrote:
Trump claims he "inherited a mess." That's obviously a load. Obama, on the hand, inherited the very definition of a mess. The turn around we saw, as evidenced by almost every measurable we can consider, was nearly miraculous. A president can't take all the credit for what happens over eight years, obviously, but he has to get a lot and I would put him in the upper third.The heavy lifting to save the economy was passed by Bush before Obama even took office. The controversial TARP was done under Bush's admin, which was key in getting credit flowing again. Bush also passed the initial Detroit bailout, which Obama later expanded. The only thing that Obama really did for the economy was the stimulus package, which was a good idea, but was terribly executed. Obama let liberal democrats hijack the original purpose of the stimulus by injecting cash into liberal pet projects, so that what was sold to the American public ("shovel ready projects") turned out to be a very small percentage of the overall $800B stimulus package (it was less than $100B of the total, IIRC). I would give Obama very little credit for the recovery from the 2008 crisis.
___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [DieselPete]
[ In reply to ]
That's funny, I see the turnaround as a tribute to the American people/business that hunkered down and did what was necessary to survive. What did Pres. Obama really do? He put forth bogus "shovel ready" jobs, bailed out too big to fail cronies and artificially stimulated the stock market. With all that, we still have anemic growth, massive debt and a broken health care system.
Not a fan.
_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
Not a fan.
_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
Re: Obama the 12th best Prez [len]
[ In reply to ]
I don't know how I would rate Obama. Rating presidents seems pretty hard.
I think it is meaningless, at least in terms of Bush and Obama. You can relate some things on a more short term nature but with Bush and the Iraq War, the impact could be generational. For Obama, he did inherent a financial mess but I don't think you can blame Bush for that or give credit to Obama.
For Obama, like Bush, a lot of their legacy will be on how things work out on foreign policy. Obama solidified some relationships with allies but also increased drone attacks and had a very bad relationship with Russia. It's way too early to assess the impact of those. His big domestic achievement was ACA but that may be gone so the jury is out.
Both Bush and Obama increased the debt, Obama much more than Bush but the impact of that is also something that is kicked down the road.
Either way, Trump will be on top of the list when he is done, everyone agrees with that. I hear people talking about it all the time but you won't hear it from the dishonest media. It will be a great 8 years, trust me.
I think it is meaningless, at least in terms of Bush and Obama. You can relate some things on a more short term nature but with Bush and the Iraq War, the impact could be generational. For Obama, he did inherent a financial mess but I don't think you can blame Bush for that or give credit to Obama.
For Obama, like Bush, a lot of their legacy will be on how things work out on foreign policy. Obama solidified some relationships with allies but also increased drone attacks and had a very bad relationship with Russia. It's way too early to assess the impact of those. His big domestic achievement was ACA but that may be gone so the jury is out.
Both Bush and Obama increased the debt, Obama much more than Bush but the impact of that is also something that is kicked down the road.
Either way, Trump will be on top of the list when he is done, everyone agrees with that. I hear people talking about it all the time but you won't hear it from the dishonest media. It will be a great 8 years, trust me.
Quote:
I see the turnaround as a tribute to the American people/business that hunkered down and did what was necessary to survive.
I suppose that you also credit the American people/business for the fact that "we still have anemic growth". I find the "blame/credit" game to be a bit too politically capricious.
Last edited by:
oldandslow: Feb 20, 17 17:38