the sad thing is we still promote, idolize and rabidly watch this sport as these guys are slowing dying on the field in front of us. We might as well bring back gladiator fights, its more brutal and at least honest about the fact the participants are killing each other.

How anyone could let their kid play football in this day is age is unbelievable. Kids should be banned from playing football until age 18 when they are adults and can make their own decisions. Period, end of story...

We?


Drama much?


We have MMA.


And also none of your business.


My son chopped his finger off sitting a chair. Kids should be banned from sitting!!!!!!


Really the solution here is simple. Get rid of the pads and helmets in football.

Or, realize that everyone knows that football is dangerous and let people make decisions for themselves.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Really the solution here is simple. Get rid of the pads and helmets in football.

That's called "rugby". Or, Australian Rules Football also...

Or, realize that everyone knows that football is dangerous and let people make decisions for themselves.

Pretty much this. Helmets and equipment are getting a little safer, but they're not quite keeping up with the speed and size of the players, not yet.

Go with 9 players on the field instead of 11 and make it 15 yards for a first down.

That would favor smaller players.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I can honestly see the game evolving to something like this---maybe 20 years from now, but this wouldn't surprise me one bit.

A few years ago, the "A-11" offense became vogue, where the offense was spread all over the place, and theoretically all 11 players were eligible receivers...favoring smaller, quicker teams. Not sure how much it's even being used (this was primarily at the high school level), if while being technically a legal formation it violated the "spirit" of the rules, etc.

But that was a step in your proposed direction.

Or, realize that everyone knows that football is dangerous and let people make decisions for themselves.

Exccept that KIDS do not get to make an informed decision for themselves - their parents make it. I am not sure if many people when confronted with CTE as an adult would had they known and understood its impact as a kid continued to pursue that path.

I have no problem with people making informed decision - don't wear a seatbelt, smoke crack etc I do have a problem when kids are involved who have no informed consent in the decision making and you can hardly argue that parents who now know that there is a 1 in 4 chance that at 40, 45, 50 that should you pursue an activity in which repeated concussions are the norm, that there is every likelyhood you are going suffer from early onset dementia that this is in the best interest of a 7, 8 or 9 year old

Do it for the children!!!!!!

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Fwiw, my son mentioned playing football once.

I said no.

Same with boxing.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I do wonder about football, BMX, mountain biking, free ride skiing, MX etc

all of them you take multiple big hits, I think the difference between all of them and football is that football is or can be a constant accumulation of minute knocks plus big hits, the others you may get your bell rung once every so often - I think for my kids I'd let them do the others but there is no way I'd let them play rugby or football

There is zero chance my boy is playing football. Screw that noise. Even hockey, I'll put him in non-contact if he wants to play.

Here's my question, how is the NFL going to survive? Less and less kids are playing football now. The talent pool will continue to shrink.

And with other sports you can remove concussion causing stuff. Hockey could eliminate hitting and it would still be a good product. Baseball could come down hard on pitchers throwing at batters. What can football do?

Yeah you can make the game faster thus having smaller players but the hitting is always going to be there.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

The NFL won't survive. It's already a dead man walking. The killshot already happened. It's just going to take a long time (decades) before it bleeds out and dies.

The billion dollar lawsuits are coming, and they will be brutal as well as far as football's future, but it's a whole generation of kids that are not playing football as much (the current crop of youngsters) and the next generation that won't play at all that will ultimately kill the sport. Anyone who doesn't believe the NFL is eventually dead is an idiot. I recall someone chiming in on a similar thread who was an asst. college coach or something. He told those of us that said football was dead that we were wrong. He of course had a vested interest, and was an idiot.

My son also wanted to play and we told him no chance. He did play flag football for five years.

I think any parent that allows their kid to play football in this day and age with what we know is negligent in doing their main job as a parent which is to protect your kid as best you can.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

A guy on the radio I listen to was talking with a rich guy who was approached about buying into an NFL team and the rich guy basically said, "why would I put my money in the NFL? Will it even be around in 20 years?"

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

the bolded is what seems to be the major issue, from what I've read. Little tears caused by solid-but-not-knockout contact is the main culprit, these go largely undetected and the players don't really feel or notice them. It's a hidden injury in many respects, but over years of contact it adds up. That's why linemen are far more susceptible to CTE and long-term effects: every single play they hit their opponent right in the helmet.

Doing away with helmets and reducing pads is the only answer, imo. And yes, to the people who say 'that's Rugby' - it basically is, and that's what American football needs to become if it's to survive long-term. It's a far more exciting sport anyway, at least to me.

People aren't looking 20, 30, or 40 years down the road. Props to that rich guy as he sounds like someone who will stay rich. The NFL is still going to ride high and be uber profitable for many years to come but the dark days are coming. If I'm a current NFL owner I'd be really thinking about an end game for the next 20 years.

I think the NFL is really going to start feeling the squeeze in about a decade. Less youth football participation means less high school participation which means less college which means less pro. Each year is going to get progressively worse.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Look at the behavior of numerous NFL prospects and stars. They don't think 20 days down the road, much less 20 years. As long as there is money in the NFL, there will be parents who push their kids into the sport in hopes of having a big pay day.

Its that and i believe a testable genetic predisposition to it

Rugby wont survive in its current form either. Youtube george north concussions

Don't know and don't care.

It died to my when I was about 12. I watch the Super Bowl if I get invited to a party but that's about it.

I actually kind of look down on most grown men who are obsessed with football (or any sport that they don't play for that matter).

Most of the sports fans I see are obese.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Not a chance. People don't realize that less than 1,700 people a year are on a NFL team so we're talking about a very small percentage of the population. Also, profits and viewship is through the rough and players sign waivers acknowledging the risks. The only reason the NFL got into legal issues with concussion is because they withheld knowledge of the issue. Most people are willing to risk the chance of concussions, and other bodily injuries, because they love the game and because they can make a lot of money. A rookie on the practice squad makes at minimum $465,000 a year. That's big money in and of itself but for many players their alternative career is asking people if they want to supersize their order.

Football at all levels have implemented rule changes and put a huge emphasis on proper tackling. I think someone who didn't play football is under the impression that everyone is getting concussions and that's the case. I played football from peewee's all the way through college and I never had a concussion and I can count the number of concussions I saw on one hand. Obviously, a concussion could happen on the opposing sideline that I wasn't aware of, but they are not as common as some people think.

I read one report form a doctor who believes the real problem is not taking enough time off after a concussion. Players who rush back or are strongly pushed to play have a much higher risk of additional concussions, and other brain injuries, if the brain hasn't fully healed from the initial concussion.

TLDR: Not everyone gets a concussion and pro players make a ton of money

A first concussion increases the likelyhood of a second

The fact is that irrespective of what you are saying. The pool of available talent is decreasing as parents with draw their kids.

The second thing is your experience is not tallying with the reported data. You say yoi've never seen one or only a handful. The reported data does not support that.

Finally. Maybe only 1500 or so make it to the big leagues. How many play HS. How many college.

Lets say it thins by 90% at each level. Thats 15k at college. Thats 150k in HS.

So we're not discussing 1500 at the pro level. We are asking where the 50, 100, 150k will come from in HS.

And with the lowered numbers in high school you will get lower quality in the NFL.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Completely agree but apparently the OP doesnt think there is anything to be concerned about.

You are right. Where else is a kid going to go from college to a job where the minimum wage is a lot more than most people make in 10 years?

"If a player remains on the practice squad for an entire regular season, he would earn $112,000. A player with less than one accrued season on the active roster would earn a minimum salary of $405,000."

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

Yup, and there will always be players willing to play. But what kind of players are we talking about 20 years from now when all the best athletes are playing baseball, basketball, soccer, athletics... and not football so much?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I suspect the talent pool is decreasing faster from educated upper and middle class families and slower from lower income families and population areas.

If there was a way to ban football fantasy leagues, I'm guessing the NFL's demise would be greatly accelerated. My belief is that the NFL's current "popularity" is being entirely propped up and carried by fantasy football.

Not related to the CTE issue, but since we're talking about how much longer the NFL may or may not last.

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More high school kids are playing football than any other sport and participation is increasing
http://www.cnsnews.com/...ns-no-1-hs-sport-usa

Can you provide the data are you referencing? I found the below site but it doesn't say where the data came from. It calls out 64-76.8 concussions per 100,000 athletic exposures. For reference hockey is 54 and boys lacrosse is about 43 and girls soccer is 33.
http://www.headcasecompany.com/...n_concussions_sports

You're making extreme predictions that are in conflict with the current trends. We are two or three years removed from the NFL concussion scandal and HS and college football participation is at an all time high.
https://www.nfhs.org/articles/high-school-sports-participation-increases-for-27th-consecutive-year/

Hi GMAN. I believe I'm the idiot you're referring to regarding the thread a while back where I stated my experience, and my opinion as a football recruitment coordinator at the college level. You seem to be spewing your own opinion and acting as if it is informed, as well as insults. Nice job.

The sport is only growing and the NFL is far from a 'dead man walking'. I say that not as a fan of the sport, only as one who works in the industry.

And as for your judging of parents who let their kids play football, I assume you feel the same about all sports. They all carry risk and have the same common factor: all it takes is one incident. As for protection being our "main job as a parent", I couldn't disagree more.


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Well you can actually look to MLB for part of your answer. Baseball #'s are not good at the youth level. The best athletes don't tend to gravitate to baseball. xThe % of the league that is African American has been in steady decline for a while and polls indicate that kids as a whole just don't look at it as something they are interested in. The product is lessened by this but it is still there.

I think those who are physically very gifted towards football (large, fast, etc.) will still play at the youth levels and their parents will promote it. But I can't see why parents of a kid that is not destined to be good would let them play.

What we might see though is high schools getting out of the business and it having to become a club sport or something similar to AAU basketball. There is a lot of liability potential for high schools and no budget for defending lawsuits.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Apparently your reading comprehension is not so great.

The fact that the same percentage are enrolled in HS today says nothing about the future pipe line of players from elementary school. The article says the percentage enrolled has remained constant as a percentage of total HS kids. It does not say participation is increasing faster as a percent of total students. If you are going to use an article to illustrate a point, read what it says.

League of denial was written, what 4? 4 years ago? The class action in the last 2-3? You think the impacts of that would be statistically noticeable this quickly?

The withdrawl rate is not going to significantly impact those already playing. This is a public health strategy, the same as smoking, yes you'd like people to give up but far more importantly is stopping them from starting. No where in the article does it make any reference to the next generation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC4324991/

Football and boxing account for 86% of research reported cases. So far - its quoted widely - indications are that up to 80-90% of nfl players could have it

The reported concussion rates are a joke. Firstly reporting a decrease in concussions in the season says nothing about concussions in practice. Secondly, as more has been foubd out about concussions, its become increasingly apparent that the protocols that have been used pick up the big hits and might take you out of the game, but it is the cumulative effect of multiple repeated knocks with no time to recover that causes brain damage.

You are a little like Philip Morris. In the face of the overwhelming evidence linking the problem with the cause, you think that the changes in behaviour would be reflected in 2-3 yeara and because they haven't you think problem solved.

Public health strategies, changing peoples behaviour takes years, in some instances decades. The biggest public health programs of the last 40-50 years; immunisations, cancer screening, seat belts, child seats, smoking cessation, removing asbestos from the workplace, sexual behavior and STD's have taken years

You can keep telling yourself its fine, but when parents here are telling you their infants are not going to be playing football and there is no evidence that can be provided to demonstrate its safe, you should recognise they may not be outliers...........

Do you understand that? Its to early to tell.

Just because i think i'm one of the forums pedants

All sports do not have the same common factor - it takes one incident.

Yes, i suppose you could drown, jump in to shallow water or swim head first in to the pool wall but you can not seriously be equating the clinical research on repeated head impacts in football and boxing with the fact that something might happen in another sport

Football is materially more likely to result in a concussion than golf? Or do you disagree?

As to protecting our kids. Irrespective of whether its the number one job. It is certainly a cobsideration and when the clinical evidence indicates that should you continue to play the likelyhood of ending up with a devastating clinical condition unnecessarily should surely be a consideration?

If you are not going to be a professional what reasonable grounds are there to pick playing football with the risk of brain damage over golf / swimming / track and field? None i think

You state "All sports do not have the same factor", then you proceed to acknowledge that they do by citing examples. That is what I am referring to. They do indeed have the "one incident" factor. I acknowledge that football has a much higher incident rate than other sports. Never stated otherwise. In my opinion, the serious, life altering injuries occur much less frequently below the professional level. Extremely less frequently at youth levels through high school.

Parents who refuse to let their kids play football citing fear of concussion/injury are acting on a fear that is not realistic. Thousands upon thousands of kids play football with no serious injury. The chances of a kid getting a serious concussion or injury is very slim and probably not much different than the same happening in any one of a number of other sports. My experience growing up: more boys got hurt playing baseball and soccer than they did football.

Older but interesting data from wiki (there is a lot of conflicting data out there):
Injury rate per exposure based on sport in collegiate athletes from 1998 to 2004[15]

Sport

Injury rate per 1,000 athletic exposures

Women's ice hockey

0.91

Men's spring football (American)

0.54

Men's ice hockey

0.41

Women's soccer

0.41

Men's football (American)

0.37

Men's soccer

0.28

Men's wrestling

0.25

Men's lacrosse

0.25

Women's lacrosse

0.25

Women's basketball

0.22

Women's field hockey

0.18

Men's basketball

0.16

Women's gymnastics

0.16

Women's softball

0.14

Women's volleyball

0.09

Men's baseball

0.07

All sports

0.28



Protection is indeed a duty and aspect of parenting. Not letting a kid play football because a parent's fear and bias towards the sport is not protection, it's just restriction.

As to your last question about grounds for choosing to play football, I'm going to assume you've never played. Going professional is not the end goal of why most kids play sports anyway, in my opinion.


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Article HERE citing a 2014 study that shows soccer is worse than football

From the article


"Recent studies show that soccer has surpassed football," said neurologist Peter A. Puzio from Augusta Health Neurology. "As soccer grows in popularity, so does the incidence of concussion. There's not a perfect a number because it all depends on the severity of each one, but there is a cumulative effect of concussions. One is bad, but it depends on the severity of the concussions."



"And while many quit football, some athletes moved on to other sports such as soccer, or wrestling — both of which many people believe are less dangerous. But recent studies show they are just as risky as football."


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The sport is not growing. It's been at a constant level but, as Andrew pointed out above, we are only a few years removed from the public debate and mainstream exposure of the concussion and CTE problem. So the statistical shift among youth participation has yet to bear out. Let's have this conversation again in 5-10 years and you will not see a positive or even neutral trend. The sport is dying. It's going to be a long death but it's dying. You can stick your head in the sand all you want but it's not going to change anything. You'll likely be safe in your career because odds are that it's going to take decades for the sport, at least the sport in its current form, to die.

You have an obvious bias and vested interest but what's your opinion on the matter outside of thinking the sport is not dying? Do you think there's teeth to the concussion/CTE research and findings or are you going to play the industry denial card and say it's not a big deal? No offense, but your industry reeks of the 1950-1970's era tobacco industry that did everything imaginable to claim smoking wasn't bad. I'm not saying you're like that, just a generalization of your industry being a bunch of greedy, devious, selfish, and self-protecting assholes. The assholeness lessens at each level down from the NFL but let's not pretend college football isn't big business.

I do not feel like that about all sports, and frankly, that's a silly argument to make. Is there risk of injury in every sport? Absolutely there is. Let's not pretend each sport is like the other in regards to danger. A sport like football is at the pinnacle of dangerous because the whole point is to violently stop someone from advancing the ball. People are getting hit at all times, and at all positions. Hockey, and lacrosse (which I played in HS), are a step or three down the list from football because, even though there's checking involved, that isn't the same as tackling. Additionally, only the puck or ball carriers are getting checked, which is a far cry from football where many/most of the players are getting hit on every play, regardless of who actually carries the ball. Also the intention of checking isn't to bring the player down, it's to remove the ball or puck from the player. I would have trepidations about letting my son play hockey or lacrosse but nowhere near how I feel about football. I wouldn't want my kid to box or do MMA either.

Then there's other sports like baseball where you could certainly get beaned in the head but that's not part and parcel to the game. Basketball you could slip on the court and hit your head. Once again, not part and parcel to the sport. There's no expectation that you're going to get hit in the head while playing baseball, basketball, golf, track, cycling, running, volleyball, or whatever. Football is just inherently violent and there's a 100% expectation you're going to get hit in the head.

As to the parenting comment, what's more important than the safety and well being of your child? Beyond unconditional love, of course.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

What do you do when you statistics conflict with your opinion? Insult the person who posted them! While you're doing this:



The NFL settled the CTE case like this:



And continues to roll like this:

Few years removed? We are fresh on the heels of the CTE 'blow up' right? Will Smith movie and all right? Parents are pulling their kids from the sport all around and it's a huge trend right?

What sport is the number one participated in sport in high school in the country? But you're right, the sport is dying.

Keep generalizing dude. I know a ton of people who generalize that triathletes are whining, elitist, pencil thin, crying bitches. Does that sum up triathletes? Do I think that there is teeth to the CTE/concussion thing? No I do not. Football is a dangerous sport. Violent. Can cause lifelong injuries. It is a shame that the NFL "covered up" what everyone already knew. Having met a number of pro and ex pro players, NOT ONE of them would have changed their decision to play in the NFL. There are a few older, retired players who are saying they would have and the other ones are calling BS on them. They know.

More cyclists died last year riding on the road than football players playing the sport. Are you going to restrict your kid from becoming a cyclist?


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That would be almost a sure thing. It's very hard to find any unhealthy behavior that isn't more common among the lower socioeconomic class than the upper.

Soccer concussions come from headers, which have been banned for youth soccer (U10), for that reason. At a certain level they are introduced (U13), but only in practice. I wouldn't be surprised to see that ban age up.

Similarly, certain checks in lax and hockey are only allowed as the athlete gets older.

Your entire post points to you probably taking too many hits to the head but I'll just let this comment stand on its own.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

And the checking is way more limited today than it was when you or I played. Even at the NCAA level, most great "hits" are flagged in lax. Its near impossible to "de-cleat" someone anymore, which is probably a good thing. Same in hockey, great hits from when I played will now get a major penalty in some cases