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Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave.
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This pretty much sums up my philosophy on the current state of affairs.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul241.html

Before the US House of Representatives, April 6, 2005.

Whenever the administration is challenged regarding the success of the Iraq war, or regarding the false information used to justify the war, the retort is: “Aren’t the people of Iraq better off?” The insinuation is that anyone who expresses any reservations about supporting the war is an apologist for Saddam Hussein and every ruthless act he ever committed. The short answer to the question of whether the Iraqis are better off is that it’s too early to declare, “Mission Accomplished.” But more importantly, we should be asking if the mission was ever justified or legitimate. Is it legitimate to justify an action that some claim yielded good results, if the means used to achieve them are illegitimate? Do the ends justify the means?

The information Congress was given prior to the war was false. There were no weapons of mass destruction; the Iraqis did not participate in the 9/11 attacks; Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were enemies and did not conspire against the United States; our security was not threatened; we were not welcomed by cheering Iraqi crowds as we were told; and Iraqi oil has not paid any of the bills. Congress failed to declare war, but instead passed a wishy-washy resolution citing UN resolutions as justification for our invasion. After the fact we’re now told the real reason for the Iraq invasion was to spread democracy, and that the Iraqis are better off. Anyone who questions the war risks being accused of supporting Saddam Hussein, disapproving of democracy, or “supporting terrorists.” It’s implied that lack of enthusiasm for the war means one is not patriotic and doesn’t support the troops. In other words, one must march lock-step with the consensus or be ostracized.

However, conceding that the world is better off without Saddam Hussein is a far cry from endorsing the foreign policy of our own government that led to the regime change. In time it will become clear to everyone that support for the policies of pre-emptive war and interventionist nation-building will have much greater significance than the removal of Saddam Hussein itself. The interventionist policy should be scrutinized more carefully than the purported benefits of Saddam Hussein’s removal from power. The real question ought to be: “Are we better off with a foreign policy that promotes regime change while justifying war with false information?” Shifting the stated goals as events unravel should not satisfy those who believe war must be a last resort used only when our national security is threatened.

How much better off are the Iraqi people? Hundreds of thousands of former inhabitants of Fallajah are not better off with their city flattened and their homes destroyed. Hundreds of thousands are not better off living with foreign soldiers patrolling their street, curfews, and the loss of basic utilities. One hundred thousand dead Iraqis, as estimated by the Lancet Medical Journal, certainly are not better off. Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave.

Praise for the recent election in Iraq has silenced many critics of the war. Yet the election was held under martial law implemented by a foreign power, mirroring conditions we rightfully condemned as a farce when carried out in the old Soviet system and more recently in Lebanon. Why is it that what is good for the goose isn’t always good for the gander?

Our government fails to recognize that legitimate elections are the consequence of freedom, and that an artificial election does not create freedom. In our own history we note that freedom was achieved first and elections followed – not the other way around.

One news report claimed that the Shiites actually received 56% of the vote, but such an outcome couldn’t be allowed for it would preclude a coalition of the Kurds and Shiites from controlling the Sunnis and preventing a theocracy from forming. This reminds us of the statement made months ago by Secretary Rumsfeld when asked about a Shiite theocracy emerging from a majority democratic vote, and he assured us that would not happen. Democracy, we know, is messy and needs tidying up a bit when we don’t like the results.

Some have described Baghdad and especially the green zone, as being surrounded by unmanageable territory. The highways in and out of Baghdad are not yet secured. Many anticipate a civil war will break out sometime soon in Iraq; some claim it’s already underway.

We have seen none of the promised oil production that was supposed to provide grateful Iraqis with the means to repay us for the hundreds of billions that American taxpayers have spent on the war. Some have justified our continuous presence in the Persian Gulf since 1990 because of a need to protect “our” oil. Yet now that Saddam Hussein is gone, and the occupation supposedly is a great success, gasoline at the pumps is reaching record highs approaching $3 per gallon.

Though the Iraqi election has come and gone, there still is no government in place and the next election – supposedly the real one – is not likely to take place on time. Do the American people have any idea who really won the dubious election at all?

The oil-for-food scandal under Saddam Hussein has been replaced by corruption in the distribution of U.S. funds to rebuild Iraq. Already there is an admitted $9 billion discrepancy in the accounting of these funds. The over-billing by Halliburton is no secret, but the process has not changed.

The whole process is corrupt. It just doesn’t make sense to most Americans to see their tax dollars used to fight an unnecessary and unjustified war. First they see American bombs destroying a country, and then American taxpayers are required to rebuild it. Today it’s easier to get funding to rebuild infrastructure in Iraq than to build a bridge in the United States. Indeed, we cut the Army Corps of Engineers’ budget and operate on the cheap with our veterans as the expenditures in Iraq skyrocket.

One question the war promoters don’t want to hear asked, because they don’t want to face up to the answer, is this: “Are Christian Iraqis better off today since we decided to build a new Iraq through force of arms?” The answer is plainly no.

Sure, there are only 800,000 Christians living in Iraq, but under Saddam Hussein they were free to practice their religion. Tariq Aziz, a Christian, served in Saddam Hussein’s cabinet as Foreign Minister – something that would never happen in Saudi Arabia, Israel, or any other Middle Eastern country. Today, the Christian churches in Iraq are under attack and Christians are no longer safe. Many Christians have been forced to flee Iraq and migrate to Syria. It’s strange that the human rights advocates in the U.S. Congress have expressed no concern for the persecution now going on against Christians in Iraq. Both the Sunni and the Shiite Muslims support the attacks on Christians. In fact, persecuting Christians is one of the few areas in which they agree – the other being the removal of all foreign forces from Iraqi soil.

Considering the death, destruction, and continual chaos in Iraq, it’s difficult to accept the blanket statement that the Iraqis all feel much better off with the U.S. in control rather than Saddam Hussein. Security in the streets and criminal violence are not anywhere near being under control.

But there’s another question that is equally important: “Are the American people better off because of the Iraq war?”

One thing for sure, the 1,500 plus dead American soldiers aren’t better off. The nearly 20,000 severely injured or sickened American troops are not better off. The families, the wives, the husbands, children, parents, and friends of those who lost so much are not better off.

The families and the 40,000 troops who were forced to re-enlist against their will – a de facto draft – are not feeling better off. They believe they have been deceived by their enlistment agreements.

The American taxpayers are not better off having spent over 200 billion dollars to pursue this war, with billions yet to be spent. The victims of the inflation that always accompanies a guns-and-butter policy are already getting a dose of what will become much worse.

Are our relationships with the rest of the world better off? I’d say no. Because of the war, our alliances with the Europeans are weaker than ever. The anti-American hatred among a growing number of Muslims around the world is greater than ever. This makes terrorist attacks more likely than they were before the invasion. Al Qaeda recruiting has accelerated. Iraq is being used as a training ground for al Qaeda terrorists, which it never was under Hussein’s rule. So as our military recruitment efforts suffer, Osama bin Laden benefits by attracting more terrorist volunteers.

Oil was approximately $27 a barrel before the war, now it’s more than twice that. I wonder who benefits from this?

Because of the war, fewer dollars are available for real national security and defense of this country. Military spending is up, but the way the money is spent distracts from true national defense and further undermines our credibility around the world.

The ongoing war’s lack of success has played a key role in diminishing morale in our military services. Recruitment is sharply down, and most branches face shortages of troops. Many young Americans rightly fear a coming draft – which will be required if we do not reassess and change the unrealistic goals of our foreign policy.

The appropriations for the war are essentially off-budget and obscured, but contribute nonetheless to the runaway deficit and increase in the national debt. If these trends persist, inflation with economic stagnation will be the inevitable consequences of a misdirected policy.

One of the most significant consequences in times of war that we ought to be concerned about is the inevitable loss of personal liberty. Too often in the patriotic nationalism that accompanies armed conflict, regardless of the cause, there is a willingness to sacrifice personal freedoms in pursuit of victory. The real irony is that we are told we go hither and yon to fight for freedom and our Constitution, while carelessly sacrificing the very freedoms here at home we’re supposed to be fighting for. It makes no sense.

This willingness to give up hard-fought personal liberties has been especially noticeable in the atmosphere of the post-September 11th war on terrorism. Security has replaced liberty as our main political goal, damaging the American spirit. Sadly, the whole process is done in the name of patriotism and in a spirit of growing militant nationalism.

These attitudes and fears surrounding the 9-11 tragedy, and our eagerness to go to war in the Middle East against countries not responsible for the attacks, have allowed a callousness to develop in our national psyche that justifies torture and rejects due process of law for those who are suspects and not convicted criminals.

We have come to accept pre-emptive war as necessary, constitutional, and morally justifiable. Starting a war without a proper declaration is now of no concern to most Americans or the U.S. Congress. Let’s hope and pray the rumors of an attack on Iran in June by U.S. Armed Forces are wrong.

A large segment of the Christian community and its leadership think nothing of rationalizing war in the name of a religion that prides itself on the teachings of the Prince of Peace, who instructed us that blessed are the peacemakers – not the warmongers.

We casually accept our role as world policeman, and believe we have a moral obligation to practice nation building in our image regardless of the number of people who die in the process.

We have lost our way by rejecting the beliefs that made our country great. We no longer trust in trade, friendship, peace, the Constitution, and the principle of neutrality while avoiding entangling alliances with the rest of the world. Spreading the message of hope and freedom by setting an example for the world has been replaced by a belief that use of armed might is the only practical tool to influence the world – and we have accepted, as the only superpower, the principle of initiating war against others.

In the process, Congress and the people have endorsed a usurpation of their own authority, generously delivered to the executive and judicial branches – not to mention international government bodies. The concept of national sovereignty is now seen as an issue that concerns only the fringe in our society.

Protection of life and liberty must once again become the issue that drives political thought in this country. If this goal is replaced by an effort to promote world government, use force to plan the economy, regulate the people, and police the world, against the voluntary desires of the people, it can be done only with the establishment of a totalitarian state. There’s no need for that. It’s up to Congress and the American people to decide our fate, and there is still time to correct our mistakes.

April 7, 2005



Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.


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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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Yawn!!!

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Last edited by: Mr. Tibbs: Apr 7, 05 20:50
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Definetely napping material.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Why "yawn"?

I found it to be one of the most lucid statements on the current situation any of our elected officials has released. If Kerry could have outlined this in as direct and clear a manner, Theresa Heinz might be selecting Oval Office fabric swatches right now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





No sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter!
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [3Sport] [ In reply to ]
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What new has been said? Why didn't he just say "Bush lied, troops died!!!"

It is a tired, drawn out, over talked piece of propoganda. You guys have a great chance to change some minds on this and instead of being smooth and smart about it you bomb throw and over state...

"I'm a Republican who hates the war! Look at me! I am diffrent!"

No one with any brains thinks Iraq is super fantastic and almost the US. No one with brains is going to say Saddam was better and nothing good is happening in Iraq.

Your a smart dude, your better than this.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah shuddup Ron. Tibbs doesn't like dissent, dissent baaaad. Just go along and shut your mouth fer chrissakes.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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What you call propoganda, I call the truth. I especially like it because it was a texas republican speaking before the US House. The democrats don't have much room to complain since they voted for the war. And, I don't think he was bomb throwing, but even if he was I think war is one of those situations were forceful rhetoric is called for.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Dissent? When was I speaking against dissent? Is tired, over used speeches you idea of dissent? Fine by me but it is a useless way to express your dissent. In one ear out the other.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I'm listening, and I'm sure many of the man's constituents found his comments very interesting.

People these days get their "news" for the most part from very biased partisan sources. Its refreshing to see a man buck the trend and follow his conscience instead of the party whip.

I can guarantee you that there are a lot of people in Texas sitting up and listening to their Congressman. People who once bought the White House, Fox News, talk show radio version of events hook line and sinker without question might now have a more realistic view of this war.

How is this a bad thing?

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Who is he trying to talk too? Your side? You already believe him. All the stuff his bitching about is in the past. We need to talk about the here and now.

We have already invaded, we have already over thrown Saddam, we have already lost troops, we have already started fighting an outside insergency, Bush has already been reellected, the Iraqi goverment has already started being built, we have already had the first elections.

What are you going to do now. Not what has happened but what are you going to do here and now.

It FEEEEEEEELLLLLLLSSSS real good to get angry, it FEEEEELLLLLS all wonderful to dissent, it FEEEEEEEELLLLLLSSS awsome to thank you are right.

Other than FEEEEEEEELINGS and dissent what do you have? What do you do about the here and now?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"What insights could be offered for you to actually admit that some of the things said may actually be true."

When did I say he was lying? I drank the kool-aid early in the war and now with hindsite I beieve we should not have gone in.

I am just pointing out that to someone who is not locked on either side it's tone came off as yet another angry politico looking for press.

I ask again what are we going to do about it. We can't change the past.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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So pull out an let the slaughter begin? If you want too.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbs I don't know if you ever made sense, but recently you have really been teetering on the edge of sanity.

We're a war for chrissakes, how is it pointless for anyone to discuss the validity of our nation's actions...especially when those actions have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people????

Think man dammit. If the war is pointless to discuss just what would you have the nation mull over at dinner time? Scott Peterson? Michael Jackson? Terri Schaivo? Brad and Jen's divorce? yeah...then we'd all be much better off....kepp the masses dumb and stoopid.

More Baywatch and American Gladiators for Tibbs, the war is boring him.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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This is important. I am bording on the edge of sanity or insanity? This is very important.



"We're a war for chrissakes, how is it pointless for anyone to discuss the validity of our nation's actions...especially when those actions have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people???? "

Did I say it was pointless to discuss this? Where did I say this? Hundreds of thousands? Where is this confirmed?

"More Baywatch and American Gladiators for Tibbs, the war is boring him."


Where did I say I found the war boring?



Christ dude that is the fucking worst arguments I have ever read. All I am saying is that we are in the war now and levaing is not an option and instead of bringing up reasons for not going to war we need to talk about what we do now.

Ranting and raving is better then listening isn't it?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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You don't think the reasons for getting into this war should be discussed anymore? There are no lessons to be learned? nothing to garner from the past for future reference?

The next time we go half cocked into a bogus war people will stand up and ask...how the hell did we get into this mess again?? I guess its because we really didn't learn anything last time around...oops there goes another country and another few thousand of our finest.

Oh well.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"You don't think the reasons for getting into this war should be discussed anymore?"

Ya know this will piss you off but I don't care. Pull the bullshit out of you brain and pay attention to what I am saying.

Yes this should be discussed. It should be taken apart with a fine tooth comb. It just you guys will not move into the now. The argument is over, Bush won. He started the war, the WMDs where not found, troops died at a large rate and he still won. The time for argument is over. Switch the rhetoric to a dialog that includes solutions instead of attacks.

We have to stay and fix it for one reason, we started it. I believed in the war at the begining and if I knew what I know now I would not have. I now think it was a bad idea to go in but guess what? I have to stand behind my first decission. I have to look for a solution that will leave Iraq better than we found it. We do this because we need to fix what we break. If we pull out now we would be nothing more then the invading hordes you think we are. If we stay and fix our mistake then we can at the very least hold our head up and have some pride.

See what I mean? I have changed my mind but still take responsability for what I said before. I switched my tone and now instead of being a Bush tourch carrier I am a man who wants to make good.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Last edited by: Mr. Tibbs: Apr 8, 05 23:43
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"What about the insurgents and their continue presence?"

We continue to fight them and as the goverment comes on line odds are good that an independent Iraq will defend itself.

"What about the Sunnis, 20% of the population who have no representation?"

They do. All sides have promised them a place at the table even though it is their own fault for not voting.

"What about the inability of the Iraq soldiers to do anything except run everytime they hear a gunshot?"

Of course that is a stupid statement. They are coming on line, not as fast as we want but they are getting there. My sources are far better than yours and I am being told they are fighting back.


" What is the timetable for leaving?"

There is none. There can't be. It's only been two years. It took longer to rebuild japan and Europe.

"Why isn't Iraq paying us back with the proceeds from oil as was promised?"

That question is for you. You love to say the war was about oil. I have said it never was. No oil it looks like I am right.

Ok now you answer these questions. All you do is bitch about the past, what should we do for the future?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not quite sure yet how we can say Iraq had free elections, when there are 140,000 foreign troops there to keep the insurgency down but so be it.

The cost in lives and resources has been way too high to get a single bad man in prison and I would pull the plug on the whole thing right now.

How can you say leave when your first statment says we are the only glue holding it together over there? If we leave now all hell will break loose and if you think it is a mess now see what happens if we pack up. Part of the problem in Iraq is we didn't finish this the first time.

In the prenup thread you said when you commit you commit and this is the same. We made this mess and we have to stay until we can stabilize it or the long term costs will be higher. I would love it if we could bring all of them home today but we just can't because it will leave a mess and be seen as a sign of weakness.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"If it is, how can you have freedom with 140,000 foreign troops? "

Europe has done it for decades.



"It's a case of not really listening until I say what he wants me to say. "

Wrong again, your good being wrong. I forgot you answered earlier.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I see your points and would love to leave now but think we would be better off by reducing troops in a organized manner over time. I think we should tell the Iraqis that we will be essentially gone by X date and they had better be ready because we are leaving one way or the other.

I don't think we will ever be totally out of Iraq, I bet we always have at least one airbase there with some presence.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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Fuck that. I'd take a bullet no sweat in an attempt the rid the world of him. He is a psychopath.

I'd rather be dead than live under Hussein. Gladly.

Better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a lamb.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'd rather be dead than live under Hussein. Gladly.

One might note that if the Iraqis themselves had felt that way, we wouldn't have had to invade to get rid of him ourselves. Apparently, they didn't.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The people had no ability to over throw him. Outside intervention was the only way.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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"Outside intervention was the only way."

From the Iraqi civilians perspective (the ones living under Saddam's reign that are now dead), or from the outside superpowers perspective? Who gets to make that call?


_________
kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [GJS] [ In reply to ]
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From anyone's perspective. Tibbs is right - the Iraqis couldn't have gotten rid of Saddam by themselves. The failed rebellions demonstrated that pretty well.

Now whether outside forces should have invaded can be debated day and night (oh wait, it already has been).

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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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My views have changed because I now see how bad our intligence is. I loose no sleep about what we are doing in Iraq. Like i have said a million times I regret leaving the military and would gladly give my life over there. It's just with the brilliant gift of hindsight I see that we really don't know what's going on and if I could travel time I would say don't do it.

The problem I have is I supported the war in the begining so even though I now think it was a BAD move I can't just jump ship and talk bullshit. During my entire military career out threat briefings talked about Iraq's WMD. Everyone thought the same. I was brief by British, French and Turkish intel officers that all said the same thing. Saddam has WMDs. Bush 1 told us that he had them, Clinton told me he had them, Bush 2 said he had them and they all agreed it was a serouis threat.

Everyone was wrong. I was wrong but all that matters what we do now. 'Why' no longers matters.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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[quote]after that the weapons inspectors said they could not find any WMD[/quote]

Part of the problem was that Saddam and the Iraqi government were not playing by the UN rules, so there was no way for the inspectors to do the jobs as thoroughly as they were supposed to. Therefore, the Iraqis gave us all the pretext we needed at the time "The UN inspectors can't find anything b/c the Iraqis aren't following the rules."
That + terrible intel + the groupthink mentality that much of the world had: "Iraq has WMD" allowed us to go in with a clear conscience (at least from an Executive Branch perspective).

*************************
under-trained and over-tapered. . . .yet still hopeful . . . does that make me an optimist or a masochist?
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Re: Better to be alive under Saddam Hussein than lying in some cold grave. [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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I guess these 300,000 people never got that choice---

http://www.nytimes.com/...d=print&position=
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