Here's Heat 1 from the Team....

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Tell me more about developing a fast efficient kick. Tons of talk about feel for the water and rotation and stuff, not much about a string kick and how it fits into the stroke as a whole.

An efficient, fast freestyle is a full body, connected and coordinated movement which involves the kick working with the upper body to maximize a swimmer’s ability to generate propulsion.

It would be the equivalent in running of saying we want to make you a more efficient runner, but you need to run with your arms at your sides and your arms shouldn’t move.

The best distance swim programs in the US 20-25% of the total training volume is kicking. There’s a reason for it.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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So when 20-25% of the volume is kicking do you mean like all type of kicking drills, or mainly kickboard flutter kick? 10k/week seems like a ton of kick distance.

I struggled for awhile to feel the connection between the kick and pull, and I'm sure there's still a lot of room for improvement. Is helping this connection as simple as strengthening the kick, or is the a more specific link I'm missing?

Thanks a lot for the feedback, it's great to have such knowledgeable minds willing to share here.

There really aren't drills for kicking. It's just kicking. Usually with a board unless you're doing backstroke or underwater dolphin kick. But for distance freestylers it's just kick with a board. We use to do it with old tennis shoes. I'm fond of drag sox. You can do it with a chute or a bucket and fin work is great too. But generally just flutter kick with a board. And it's probably closer to 15-20k a week, depending on the program. I remember sets of 20x100 kick which wasn't unusual.

It's both. Neuroscientist have a shorthand - neurons that fire together, wire together. You want to make that connection stronger? It's really the connection to an engaged core that you want to focus on while you are kicking, then make the movement over and over again with a lot of focus.


You are welcome. I'm happy to help.

Tim

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Fastest was 38 vs slowest at 1:17, which means the fast guy was twice as fast. This agrees with my observations that kicking speeds vary much more than overall swimming and pulling speeds, e.g. the 38 kicker isn't swimming twice as fast as the 1:17 guy. But certainly the extra speed a great kick can provide can easily be the diff between being a very good swimmer and a really good one. I've been working on my kick for years and have made considerable improvement but not enough to challenge your 38 guy. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

In this case, the differential is about 35 seconds/100 swimming between 38 and 1:17.

And the 38 guy isn't on top right now. The fastest so far has been a 35.9. I'll post those videos over the next week.

I hope you submit a video. Competition is fun and can really jumpstart improvement. I'll even give you some insight into how to make your kick better, if I can see anything.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Here's Heat 2....

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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I haven't been swimming for a couple of years, but I'm likely to get back in the pool in the new year. My kids are getting a bit older and I'm a little more able to take an evening off here and there.

Are you going to repeat the challenge in the new year? Last time I did a timed 50 kick was somewhere around a 36 (SCM) with board, no fins. I have no idea how close I can get to that.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I won't do the challenge again until November/December 2024. But nothing stopping you from jumping in the pool right now with a kick board and cell phone and doing a fast 50. I hope you do. And we'd give you a handicap for the SCM, so somewhere around 33 high for SCY.

And if you do it, I might even get back in the water for a 50 kick.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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right now??

I'm at work. they frown on getting the laptops wet ;-)

plus I'd probably die.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Maybe not right this moment, but sometime in the next 3 weeks.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Jason,

Welcome back.

I need to heal from a recent fight w the pavement … spoiler it won.

But I’ll do a kick test w you anytime you feel ready. I don’t mean that as a competition between you and me I just mean it so you don’t have to do it alone.

*also the kick is prob the most ignored aspect of swimming by triathletes. It baffles me. Kicking is key folks. If you’re good or bad it doesn’t matter. It’s critical to your performance

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

This is absolutely foreign to me. I'm not a great swimmer in comparison to other disciplines. Maybe doing 5% kick? Like 200-300y total in the warmup of a 4-5k workout.

I can totally see the potential for improvement, my glide is terrible compared to peers in the lane but the pace is the same albeit at a much higher stroke rate. Thinking about it more it could make sense that it's just fitness making up for technique, and the kick makes sense as a drag (pun intended) on speed.

Last (maybe last) question-is kick technique as simple as keeping it tight and kicking from the hips? The doesn't seem to be a ton of info about how to kick in comparison to catch/pull/push etc. When you have a kickboard it's it ok to just flutter, or should there be a focused target on technique as well?

You can vary it. You don’t have to do large kick sets in every workout, but they do have a place every once in a while.

One of the bigger aspects it impacts is your ability to hold a line down the middle of your body. You are removing a lot of the rotation of the stroke, so it’s easier to feel how you need to engage the core. Then it’s a great workout. Kicking is a very efficient way to build fitness.

Good question - there’s technicality to it. But initially the best thing to focus on would be trying to get as long on the water as you can with your core engaged. Kick from the hips with a soft knee and your big toes should almost graze one another. I the arc of the kick keep your feet near to just above the surface of the water. Do that over and over again and we can talk more on some of the finer points.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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so the interesting thing about kicking, an effective kick absolutely requires good ankle flexibility. I came back to swimming after a decade or so of running and natural inflexibility, used to be able (age 9-12) to kick and keep up with the slowest in our squad, since restarting swimming cannot complete a length (25yd) of kicking.
A couple of months of kick focus using fins did get me to about 20yds without fins, but I've gone backward since then.


Gary Hall's analysis here seems to me accurate,
https://swimswam.com/build-stronger-freestyle-kick-mechanics/
"that really leaves us with one good option for improving the kick, improve ankle flexibility."


As Tim says there aren't any drills to improve kicking skills, just kick. The many of us who can't even kick a length are left stranded..
My plan is to do the ankle flexibility exercises and a lot of fin kicking, but will have to retire to find the time for it..

Just to check . 1 stroke into the wall on the turn but do the hands have to touch the wall to turn or can you flip with the kickboard?
- does it have to be freestyle? - dolphin kick ok?

What if you usually do a 2 beat kick

Should we not be swimming with a 2 beat kick?

2 beat kick is probably what most triathletes should use. But you know how you get a better and more efficient 2 beat kick?

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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One hand has to touch the wall on the turn.

You can do a dolphin kick, but above water flutter is going to be faster.

At the finish, no strokes into the wall. The finish is when the board touches the wall with both hands on the board.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Heat 4 is posted....




Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Heat 5 is posted....

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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This is really great, Tim, thank you for the advice. I spent last week doing (what felt like) a ton of kick work. 22k with just over 7k total kick. First thing I noticed was the front of my ankles were killing me after the first few days, presumably they'd never been stretched that far or that much. It also didn't take long to go from 100y at any pace being kinda tough to doing several 100y strong efforts repeatably. I know there's a lot more work on 'kick form' as my legs are going as fast as they possibly can and only topping out at ~50sec/50y.

One weird thing that I noticed is that coming off kick sets my first ~100y freestyle will be incredibly easy and quick, then falling back into normal pace/feeling. I can't figure out if this is just my arms being more rested or if it's some positional difference carrying over from the kick set.

On last question - I've been adding kick sets onto the end of group workouts, but intuitively it seems like it would be better to build them into the meat of the workout. Is there a best practice for when to do them, or does it not really matter as long as you do the work?

Thanks again for the advice

Be careful about how much you do and how quickly you ramp up the volume. It sounds like you went from almost zero to 30% of your workouts. That's a big jump.

But I think you are starting to see the results of working on the kick and the benefits it can bring. There's no such thing as a fast, efficient swimmer with a slow inefficient kick.


It's not surprising that you feel that way. Your body position is better. Your stroke from the top to the bottom is more connected and your kick is more efficient. It's how you should feel and it's the feeling you should try to get back to any time you are in practice.


Could you optimize your practices with the sequence of the kick set? Absolutely. Is there a best practice? The best advice I can give is keep it varied and think about what you are trying to accomplish in the next set and how the kicking will impact it positively or negatively.

I'm glad to hear you are putting in some real work on your kick and you'll find that it'll pay dividends in the future. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Make sure to film your video and send it in.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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A famous coach in AUS is shannon rollason, perhaps most well known for coaching alice mills and jodie henry before athens. He said over time he has found the best kick set is 1000 straight. He's obviously dealing with some decent kickers in his squad who can probably hold 145-2 per 100 without too much stress and said he does that once a day to finish. The fast kickers get out first and the slow kickers are motiviated to get better lol

Kicking makes a big difference in swimming. And specifically practicing kick is a tried and true way to improve.

Tim

I hope you send in a video of your 50 kick.

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Bumping this thread. The 12/15 deadline is approaching.

I have zero chance of getting to the top of the time sheet on this, but a guy I swim with has thrown his hat into the ring, and I think he might have a shot!

Sounds good. Even if you don't have a chance to be the fastest, it's a good way to spur some improvement. I hope you change your mind and send in a video.

Has your buddy sent in a video yet?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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He has submitted his time and video. The video is up on the YouTube channel.

Maybe I'll give it a go just to see what I can do. I'm guessing it's be about 1 min flat for 50scm.

That would be great. We are about to do the 2nd 50 this week after all the kicking we've done over the last month.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Thanks for posting this. Makes me realize how much my kick sucks. If I do a 25 yard kick session my thighs are burning and it takes me 40-45 seconds-for 25 yards!

Is there a trick to proper technique for kicking or do I just need to do more sets?

Like swimming, it is a combination of fitness and technique. You can’t separate the two out from each other.

Think about kicking from the hip, keep the knee soft and the toe pointed. Big toes should graze one another and don’t ignore the “upkick.”

If you have any other questions, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Is there benefit to kicking a lot with fins? I am awful at kicking and it takes me close to 60 seconds to do a 25.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

There’s benefit to kicking with fins, there’s benefit to kicking with, there’s benefit to kicking with fins and drag sox, there’s benefits to kicking with short fins and there’s benefit to vertical kicking. You want your brain to get as many different looks as possible at how to make the movement.

I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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This is fascinating to me. Do you recommend any good videos showing what a strong/proper kick should look like? I'm an avg swimmer, ~28:00min for 1.9km (wetsuit). I struggle with keeping my hips up and regularly swim 5+sec/100 faster with a pull buoy than without at the same effort. When I try to kick with just a kickboard, I quite literally go nowhere - it will take me nearly 60s to go 25yds. I can kick "strongly" with fins, but presume that most can. Where do I start? Truly seems like I could drop minutes off of my times 1500m+ if I fix the kick.

I see it all the time with triathletes and it is exposing a serious inefficiency in your swimming. Always be aware that an efficient swim stroke is a full bodied, connected and coordinated movement. Not kicking in your swim stroke is the equivalent of running with your arms at your sides.

I've posted some of the videos from our kick challenge already. The fastest kick so far was Heat 8 at 35.xx.



I'll try to film the kick today and get something posted.

I hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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one of my favorite swimming moments was sometime in 2015ish. i was swimming at the mecklenburg county aquatic center, which was where swim mac elite swam on tuesday and thursday mornings since it was setup LCM. my set that day was fast 100s. i believe i was holding 1:20s +/-. anyway, about halfway through and the lane next to me lochte was leading. i realized they were doing kick 100s with a board. i finish my set of maybe 10 x 100 and watched a couple of their 100 kicks. lochte was holding (iirc) about 1:10/100 for his kick 100s long course.

Sounds about right. Little bit slower than a minute per 100 yards.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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i wouldn't say it was humbling, because i *tried* not to have an ego with swimming since i was mediocre at it, but it was cool because it was an opportunity to be next to a guy who was literally one of the best in the world at what he did. doesn't happen all that often.

anyway, kicking is underrated by most triathlon coaches. so good for you. but also hateful.

It is always helpful to swim with athletes who are faster. They will push you to get better and way better than you could ever be swimming alone. The one thing you learn about swimming after a bunch of years is that it may be an individual sport, but you only really improve in a team environment.

Yes it is. Seems like they all read the same book that you should "save your legs" in the swim.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Thanks for the recommendation. I would love to see a video of underwater kicking explained with what it should feel like muscular wise. I feel like I flex my quads while kicking which impacts my bike and run. I clearly need to kick more but I also would love a breakdown of the leg "stroke" or function and a clear description.

Appreciate any help and video you can provide!

Will do. I'm heading over to the pool shortly. I'll see what type of video I can get.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Sadly, i'm with you. After a lifetime of playing soccer and middle distance running, I have horribly inflexible ankles. Add to that a couple of ACL reconstructions and my ability to stretch my ankles is limited. That said, this thread has inspired me to ramp up my efforts to improve my kick. I know I won't ever be a FOP swimmer, but just continuing to improve my times and overall efficiency is enough for me.

Thanks Snapping!

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In search of the righteous life... we all fall down