Adding lean mass is hard. 20 watts is 5-6 kg or 11-13 lbs, depending on your watt/kg. That's a fair bit of muscle and you can't "just" gain muscle. You will gain fat too, then have to restrict intake to remove the fat back to your desired body comp.

Its also hard to gain mass while doing endurance training. So, you'd likely need to cut way back on the cardio. Then restart heavy training to regain what you've lost. You will likely them lose some of that gained muscle.

How old are you? this gets progressively harder as you get much older than 30.

I think that's a losing game in the short term. What time frame would be looking to try and make this type of change. This is more of a annual plan type of thing. Eg, you could focus time in the weight room over the winter and stop much endurance training, and then switch back in the early spring.

Et si prendre du poids, nous fait ensuite perdre du temps sur la course à pieds, ce n'est pas top

Depends on a lot of factors, e.g. your body type now, fat%, how maxed out you are in terms of flatlining your FTP, how you train now, etc etc.
But initially agree with Tom above that this is not a feasible/good strategy. Try adding here your current weight, your FTP and maybe some FTP enhancing training sets you do. Finally, what your are asking for has ONE, easy answer: HTFU

English, please?

besides the facts that French people don't do efforts to write or speak English, and that they ignore you if you do your best efforts to speak a little French when you visit France, he didn't get the fact that you are asking about pure cycling and not triathlon

Most healthy people have the muscle mass they need for a surprisingly high FTP. It's likely changing up your training is the answer here. Important to remember that training at FTP doesn't really raise FTP, it primarily extends TTE. VO2 is your friend here, although important to do it with the right dose and give yourself appropriate recovery

You're not a cool guy, it's just that your excellent site is automatically translated for me, and I wrote in French instead of English. Avoid putting all French people in the same bag, even if it is true that we are bad at English ;-)

By what mechanism would gaining weight help raise your FTP? Lifting for hypertrophy and eating a lot will help gain lean mass, but that will overwhelmingly help your 10-30sec power. If you're a world tour level rider such training would likely lower your FTP.

Gaining muscle mass in a vacuum would almost assuredly lower your FTP, assuming a reasonable level of baseline training. Bigger muscles can produce more maximal force, but also require greater amounts of oxygen and produce greater amounts of lactate. FTP and endurance is not about maximal force, it's about oxygen utilization.

We know this intuitively just by looking at athletes in different events. Track cycling sprinters are huge, muscular, max force producing machines. Track endurance riders are tiny and slight, even though there are no climbs on the track.

How about some actual periodize bike training instead of just accumulating miles by being a bike courier?

I bet you can get those watts by actually training the bike. You can only get that far with volume, and even your current volume is spread out throughout the day so much that your “moving time” in an activity is like 20%.

I don’t think you are training the bike in any way, shape, or form. You are simply riding your bike.

i am 41, I did gain 5lb last year cutting down my running after that volume was slowing me down and leading to injuries. Although I did take a new job 2 months ago, I lost all that mass and ftp went down about 10w... so I quit and went back to the old one..



See above, too low of weight not a good thing. Come to think of it most my marathon PR's when I was 10lb heavier



actually in crit racing improving my 10-30s power would be a benefit. My sprinting is so weak.



still need to put food on the table. i just log those miles for tax reasons and big kahuna 13. I do a decent bike workout 1-2x a week. If you want to join me, tuesday fiesta island 815am ;)

What kind of workouts are you doing?

Don’t forget that W/kg is still pretty important for crits since power used for acceleration scales with rider+bike mass. (F = m x a -> P = F x v = m x a x v). In other words, ability to throw down an acceleration at a given speed is regulated by P/m, not P alone.

If you post your power curve, I suspect some of the pure cyclists here might have ideas for what workouts you can do to improve your competitiveness on flat crits/TTs.

Of course they vary 1'x15 @110-120% ftp or these group ride try to hold ftp for 20-30 min then see if I can hold on for longer

There are low cost to free training plans to raise FTP on the bike all over the internet. Any of them would be innately better at raising threshold and/or sprint power and more sustainable than trying to gain lean weight.

If you decide you want to do a hillier race in 6months will you have to lose that weight again to be competitive? Some sustainable structure is much better for bettering your performance. As others have mentioned; change up your training routine and workouts before you start to consider “off the bike”, out of the box solutions.

So you are doing 1 or 2 workouts per week. The rest of your riding is not really training, it's just you riding your bike. Even big volume rides are more focused that just riding around town; 5 hour endurance rides with not a lot of stopping. You spend 80% your time on the bike not actually riding it.

I agree with Hackz, you need to pick a training program, and start getting some different kinds of stimulus, and you will find those 20-30W rather than trying to do it via gaining muscle mass. You are over 40, and gaining 4-5Kg of lean muscle is not going to be neither easy, nor quick.

15 reps of 1min at 120%FTP is an insanely easy workout. Unless you're taking like 10sec of in between reps. For our average 300wFTP cyclist that's 345-360w. This sounds like the kind of workout where you'd start going pretty hard and stop as soon as it starts to hurt a little bit.

Until you get into really high volume it's best to just go for highest average power in your workouts. Pick out an interval that adds up to 30-60 min (like 6x10min for a LT focus or 8x4 for a more VO2 focus) and try to keep your average power as high as possible. You're not going to overtrain with 2 workouts and 10 hours per week.

A workout where you 'see if you can hold FTP for longer than 30min' fundamentally means your FTP is set too high. Maybe you can't hold it for 60 min everyday, but 45min at FTP should be challenging but doable any day of the week.

Ride a lot, ride harder, do the work and stop looking for shortcuts.

Pretty much by definition you cannot do 15min at 120%. I’d guess you mean 110%.

Either way for that kind of ride that’s the wrong workout. I would do either some weekly 30/30’s or some short VO2 like 2min sets totaling about 12min.

let me clarify, the average watts during that ride is near ftp power, but NP based. the ride has a lot of big watt sprints to not get dropped, which fry me more than a steady effort. some how there is a 50-60 year old lady that can hang with this group (average ~27mph) and it drives me nuts as to what I am doing wrong

Wtf kind of a group ride goes 27mph? That's faster than pro road races.

I've seen people who have trouble in races but are great in TT's. Usually they suck at pack riding. Little tiny speed up/slow down every second or two. Popping out in the wind, not staying steady.

Either way the answer is more training. Not riding, training. Hours and hours of zone 2 type stuff. A few very hard workouts every week.

my TSS for the week is high with 3-4 run workouts , so I guess I am at the cross roads of going more specific

I assume the thought here is that adding muscle mass will increase raw strength. To that I would just add that getting stronger and adding muscle aren’t the same thing. I think those ideas get conflated, because of course they’re related, but they’re different. One can make huge gains in a squat/deadlift without adding mass. Bodybuilders and powerlifters train in very different ways because one’s trying to add mass and the other’s trying to develop neuromuscular efficiency/rate of force development, etc.

I sort of doubt that intentionally adding pounds of muscle mass will make you faster. I do think some compound lifts a few times a week probably would. If you happen to gain some muscle along the way, probably worth it.

Spot On, mate! In short: HTFU
And can I have number of that 60 year old lady averaging 43 kmh? (at this moment time, I don´t even know why you mention that 🤣)

Honestly man I can't even figure out what you're getting at anymore. You say you want to gain weight to get faster, but list your training as: High TSS with 3-4 run w/o, 27mph group ride at FTP for 20-30min, and 15x1min intervals. That's a lot of talk without a lot of information. It's really hard to give training advice without numbers.

How many hours per week total, and bike total?
How much time in zones per week?
Height/weight
FTP and how you got that number, 1/3/5 min and 12min power would be helpful too.

I know this as a former powerlifter, who still lifts even with a blown disc. I love watching the anatoly video series. In the end, all the absolute lifting records are held by big guys.

dropped after 1 lap. seems the group is getting progessively faster (i was originally attracted to it when it was 25mph pace, which is manageable for me). yes my pack skills suck.

We saw recently an excellent case of a pro cyclist changing his weight/racer profile : Jonas Abrahamsen

At 183cm (6 feets) :
initially 60kg, climber
now 78kg, rouleur / puncheur, lead-out, ....

Apparantly the change took a year, motivated by his willingness to be more adapted to most races.

My understanding is that the change was possible because he was possibly in RED-S, and changing his nutrition to something "normal" + some more intensive (including strengh/sprint) training bring him naturally to more muscles (all fiber types). Apparantly it works as he is playing a role in most races he take part in. Sure his FTP boosted with weight increase. Sprint power also. Endurance apparantly still there also.

IMHO, your capacity to gain FTP (and several hour endurance) by gaining weight is very much depending on your current physical state. If your muscle mass is constrained by nutrition (RED-S, not enought proteines, ...) or training (not adapted to develop properly your muscle mass), then you can expect a gain changing these. If it is constrained by cardiovascular, then... you need to train more (and in an adapted way, with proper nutrition, of course).

Plus, FTP (probably not far from your CP), is not the only performance factor, What about your fiber type repartition ?

Message special pour Eltito : maintenant que nous avons un champion du monde Francais nous pourrions demander que certains threads soient en francais ;-)

I have seen Abrahamsen at 18y/o with Norway national team, and he was nowhere close to 60kg; possibly more like 70kg. Do you have any pictures of his thinnest days?

No photo, just several articles with interviews from Jonas, describing the change.
I have no reasons to contest what he said in interviews.
Maybe he went down from when you saw him, going into RED-S. Then up again recently.

60 kg indeed was surprinsing as his constitution look strong.
That is probably why he is now much better at 78kg.

Yeah there is a case where gaining weight methodically can increase both FTP and W/kg, but it's going to be someone like this who is is borderline malnourished. It's fairly easy to lose weight and keep power output the same, especially if quality workouts are still fully fueled. It's also fairly easy to lose too much and see W/kg go down, the big issue being that the line is different for everybody.

What I'm saying is there is a use case for gaining weight to gain watts. But an average Joe haphazardly lifting weights and eating protein powder is unlikely to have as much of an FTP increase as if he put that training time into on-the-bike workouts.

Thank you, great reply

I agree with malnourishment and RED-s being the most likely way weight would increase FTP.

I used to be 62.5kg and am now 70.5kg. This was over the course of 10 years and I don't train quite as much as I used to (tri vs road racing) but I'm still down about 10-20% across the board on power compared to when I raced at the lower weight. In theory if weight boosted FTP I should be at least even or above from the weight. My FTP is actually similar (down about 5%) and my 1-5min is down closer to 20-25%. Just points that training is more important than the weight, as I don't train top end as much being a triathlete now.

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My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

As others have said, we are not even sure what you are trying to get out of this anymore. The general consensus is that you don't need to be able to even squah 150 lbs to push 400 W for 30-60 minutes. Might have said this before, but Bernal and Froome's legs come to mind.

27 mph on a flat course is not that hard if you are in the pack drafting, can easily be done with about 160 W if you know how to spin a gear properly. 27 mph on rolling/hilly terrain is very hard.

Back when I (sort of) knew how to ride a bike as a pack fodder u23 we would hit these averages and I really don't see many 60 year old women keeping up with u23 men racers. So whoever your riding mate is (and assuming you are not exaggerating) she is an exceptional athlete.

this weight gain is assuming i keep up my training and increasing the numbers as I gain weight (so an intverval 10'@280 would become 10'@300)



it is flat. yes some national champion. usually she just hangs on a lap or two (6 laps is the ride), but 2 other sessions she lasted the whole ride.

What are your current stats? Weight, FTP? How did you test your FTP, what protocol did you use? What power meter do you have? Are you still running those rubber tires?

1 hour fiesta island time trials at 270, weight at 160. Garmin pedals. 20min test on smart trainer 303. The rubber tires are on my commuting bikes only

So somewhere around 4W/Kg possibly for FTP.

I still think some structured, periodized training could give you a boost. It’s low hanging fruit for you since you’ve been doing the same thing for years, just the change in stimulus would trigger adaptations.

But I’m sure you will continue the path of “bulking” up to increase FTP.

Good luck, Rog.

If you are 70 kg and can push 300 W for 20 minutes (is this like a standard these days ;-)?) in a reasonable bike position, you shouldn't be getting dropped in these rides. Some something doesn't add up, is your power meter calibrated? Do you have a range of cadences you are comfortable with? It is a lot easier to handle accelerations if you can get up to 120 rpm comfortably. Watch the guys that do the points race for example. How is you 1 minute effort compared to your FTP?

 
Let me give your some other exemples, mostly because I spent some time on the subject several years ago (as an amateur) :

I used to followed the weight given by Wiggins and Dowsett in their interviews, depending on their objectives.

Wiggins :
80kg + when Individual Pursuit and Team Pursuit (before 2010)
70kg approx when going for TDF (2011-2012)
back to 77kg+ for TT world and back to Olympic TP (2014-2016)

Dowsett :
less variance, but yet significative variations depending if he was preparing for Grand Tour (with a lot of mountains) or for hour record / TT.

Myself (ahem.... not quite the same level)
80kg when training for track races (IP, TP, Scratch, Point races)
72kg now training for longer races with mountains (70.3 and trail)

But in all cases, the MOTOR remain the same despite weight variations.

When training for longer races with mountains (more fat consumption oriented), Brad, Alex and myself (I love to say that,,,) focused more on low intensity training, so more slowtwitch fiber (type 1), better fat ox.
As a consequence weight go down, punch go down, long distance W/kg increase.

When training for shorter events (mostly sugar consumption oriented), more focus on higher intensity (but still 80% slow training of course), more 2a fiber, fat ox decrease a bit.
As a consequence weight goes up, punch goes up, long distance W/kg decrease.

FTP (one hour performance) ?
Longer than IP/TP, shorter than a mountain stage...
Seems that when aiming for hour record (one hour !) Wiggins and Dowsett went up in weight. Why ?
Because, apart the slow training (80%) they included a significant larger portion of high intensity to develop some 2a fiber (usefull for one hour, negative effect for 4 hour perf), degradated a bit fat ox, and as a consequence their weight increase a bit (few kgs).
Because fiber 2a weight more than type 1
Because a bit more fat from degradated fat ox
And because weight was not an issue, track being flat, so they can relax a bit the nutritional constraint to preserve health in a high volume context.

But whatever, their performance was mostly directed by the MOTOR (cardio vascular / VO2), coming from genetic AND global training.

Based on your genetic, I agree with most peoples here saying your best chance to increase your FTP / 2 hour perf / 3 hour perf is to work on the MOTOR, so :
1) increase training load, 80/20 or 90/10 of slow / underCP
2) be sure slow is slow (if slow is not slow enough, you inhibate mitochondrial development in muscles, heart become thick, fat ox drop, and fatigue prevent training load increase, ...)

If you train correctly, and eat / fuel correctly, motor develop, muscle mass will self adjust to the motor, fat mass will self adjust depending on intensity repartition.
Weight is a consequence. It shall not be an objective.

The front pack guys, some who are bigger (which is what got me thinking of this in the first place) riding 20-50w on average more than me. My 1 min is not that great, Last specific trainer try it was 420, but then on a out door segment I did similar watts for 2 min (yes I got the CR). Anyways, my sprint ability is not good imo. Add edit.... 120rpm... no way. I ride at 60-80. maybe that is what I need to work on

I too think there is something there. I do masters TTs and the norm is for the top guys to have logs for legs. Except for ex pros who just turned masters.

And yes, for sprint efforts maximum power is typically reached between 110 to 120 rpm. Power makes you go, but your legs feel torque, so rev up to keep up when it counts.

The issue with riding 60rpm on a race (your 27mph group ride is effectively a race) is anytime there's a slight acceleration it's going to completely overcome your legs ability to produce enough torque. Riding along at 90-100rpm you can stand up and cover any attack, let alone a slight acceleration. Couple that with a poor sprint ability (read: low torque) and you have a recipe for getting dropped on all but the easiest of rides.

FTP isn't even that important for criterium racing (again, effectively what this ride sounds like). A 300w 20 min power is cool, but if you have a low 1/3/5 min power you're just going to get dropped when attacks go. These aren't easy answers, but working on VO2 stuff will help, and pack skills will help more than anything. I've been racing bikes since I was a little kid. My NP in races is regularly 30 watts below the norm for the race just by surfing wheels and not being an idiot in the group.

Based on your last post, which is somewhat incongruent to your previous posts, VO2 work on 1/3/5 min power would keep you in the group a lot longer than any weight gain might

some answers i see found in this video i guess..




annoying they weight doped, but would like to see them do 8-16 week program and try again on a flat course, they wont lose much muscle

What answers do you think this told you?

you see the power outputs they have its just they cannot sustain them due to lack of specific training (although greg seems better trained). I need those kind of power spikes

Not an expert, but yeah. That sounds right.

It also isn't just the vo2 work but the ability to recover quickly to repeat those efforts. And yeah, you need RPM's for vo2 and 30sec thru 1min power.

Richmond is a good Zwift workout for this. Ride it at Z2 then give it the "Sagan attack" on the closing two hills each lap. It's a solid vo2 effort into a very small recovery right into a harder shorter 45sec or so attack. From there you can choose to try to spin it out to the line for the lap uphill OR recover the whole rest of the lap.