How hard is it to pull up the Zoots in T1 for non-wetsuit swims?

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

I wore them under my wet suit at Salem 70.3. I haven't tried them when wet in T1. I would be inclined to just wear them in a non-wet suit swim.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Section 4.01(f): "When the use of wetsuits is prohibited (see Section 4.03), clothing covering any part of the arms below the elbows and clothing covering any of the leg below the knee is deemed illegal and is not permitted during the swim segment of the Race but may be worn after completion of the swim segment; (DSQ) . . . ."

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Right, forgot about that, good point. Regarding putting them on in T1 while wet, has to be easier then a full aero sock I would think.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Definitely rolled up though like when/if you use arm warmers for the bike leg in colder races.

I'd think you'd need to practice this to find out how fast you could get them on (wrinkle-free, of course!) and the do some maths to see if you end up with a net positive time gain. I know I've lost some dexterity as I've gotten older and it's not a guarantee I can get them on quick enough.

Rule of thumb on aero: copy Magnus. Especially Sunday :-)

Is that the same for (non IM) US triathlon races do you know ?

Would be interesting to see if the results would be the same when the KFC these are wet as they would be when you’re coming out of the water under your wetsuit

For what it's worth, they dry fast.

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Sounds good I appreciate your post

I was also thinking sweat

But I don’t know/think I sweat enough to keep them wet or not

How's the fit? I'm right in between medium and large. Any insight into which way i should err on?

My calf measures 14” around the largest area below the knee. Medium seems to fit correctly. I’m 5’9”, 154, a small or medium in other stuff.

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Team ZOOT
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First I bought the Silca socks, now I bought the Zoot sleeves.

One day I'll buy some proper aero testing if I can ever get close to the general vicinity.

Some of us wear socks for long ride(full Ironman) SILCA is better. Zoot is great for shorter races or whoever don’t care about the socks.

What do you know?!? I want to hear!

Is that before or after developing a 503 watt FTP?

If you go back and review the Silca sock test, on average the Zoot sleeves provided a higher percentage gain for those tested.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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I turned this video off before it even finished. The fact ERO publicly published the Rule 28 results based on the admitted fact they were not the proper size for the riders, just did not sit right with me at all. It should be common knowledge that aero-specific fabrics work best only when properly fitted.

Someone in the WC thread saw it :-)

I had to look up what a dropper post is!

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https://road.cc/...-bearings-msr-291351

Ya....kind of disappointing.

I forget the source, but I heard a great idea from one manufacturer. They print 3cmx3cm squares on the fabric, the idea being wrinkles bad, stretching beyond 3cm bad.

curious what would happen with aero socks and calf sleeves.

If you follow Erosports on Instagram you may have seen that Rule28 have reached out and offered to send L and XL Calf Sleeves for further testing.

They would overlap. I can’t imagine that woukd be good.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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I've done this - Silca aero socks and some 'regular' Zoot calf sleeves is what I use and will be using tomorrow in a local 70.3. I've had some pretty good bike times with this lower leg setup - no aero testing, but fastest overall bike times in a few races this year.

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Are you talking about the Zoot compression sleeves. Nate? The aero sleeves are just too long to use with Silca socks. One needs to go over the other and I would want to test that before implying it's a fast set up.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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I ordered a pair. I'm normally a size medium but ordered the L because the M stock was gone. Luckily my wife is pretty handy with the sewing machine :)

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What's your CdA?

Was going to do samething. I had in my cart and was looking for other stuff i might want and was gone before i could check out. Was hoping to get for my next race in 2 weeks, but will wait for next season as I'm likely done with tri's this year.

Too funny. There was no admittance, only an acknowledgment that sizing up might have help them test better but, so far, that is not proving to be the case. I have plenty of data from non-test participants who've tested Rule28 that fit properly and Zoot beats them every time. Their design is effectively no different than Velotoze or a handful of other offerings. Same, or similar materials, design, pattern, and length. For instance, I don't bother testing both Rule 28 and Velotoze anymore because the results are always the same; it's a waste of the athlete's time and money. Zoot tested well likely because they're longer than the others and cover more leg. Simple. A size Medium Zoot is still longer than a large Rule 28. We'll see when I have more time to test. For this test, if an athlete wore medium, they wore medium in everything.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

so do you think zoot all tested better based off length, texture why?

also I am not buying right now, but are these tight, I looked them up and I am a medium but I am 5'8 140 and were everything small? once it's tight would it not be similar to the others? is that why it varied some people stretch the size and texture. point if I stretch a small vs a proper medium do you think the results change???

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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Have you tested the Wynn republic sleeves?

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The only thing I could come up with is length. They’re clearly longer than the others and cover more area looking like socks that cover the entire length of the lower leg. I think (okay, sort of know) Zoot just got lucky on this, unlike their P1 Ultra suit which is a deliberate design going through many iterations before the final product. A suit which continues to test fast and fits as well as, perhaps, any non-custom suit I’ve seen. Zoot is having a good year.

The ribbed fabric (again they’re all pretty much the same) is acting as a boundary layer trip creating turbulence so the separation of air is delayed. If those ribs are flattened, there’s a good chance they won’t do their jobs as well.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Not yet, but the design appears to be similar to the others, so likely effective, but not as long as the Zoot’s.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

The test was surely unbiased as Zoot and every other online merchant I searched (minutes after he posted the video) was out of stock in medium.

Looking for final marginal gain options before Waco 70.3 and Silca was out of large tall aero socks in white but found a pair at Pros Closet. Purchased aero calf sleeves from Compressport. I don't like the big Zoot logo anyway.

Interesting about having a little leg hair stubble. I've read about leaving a patch along the calf. Has anyone tried a strip of KT tape along center of shin for a non-wetsuit race? Pretty sure Waco swim will be very warm.

Team Denmark

I heard your next video about speed , your welcome , can’t wait to see the results.
Have to go deep wheels , plus helmet, etc, vs basic wheels bs regular helmet ect speed under 28

Can you try homemade calf sleeve out of ribbed cotton socks that go up high on the shin.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Slightly off topic.
But do you guys know what socks/calf Sleeves Magnus and Sam were wearing in Nice?

They are out of stock now in every size except for XS. Hilarious.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

I think we'll need a test from every brand who makes calf sleeves to satisfy everyone 🤔🤣

They were on the track, so could pretty much count on zero yaw. You'd want different placement(s) for outdoor conditions. That's why you see the Silca socks with several columns of turbulators and not just a pattern in the front. Same for most of the sleeves that use ribbed fabric 360^ (not fully optimized, but convenient).

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
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Did I buy a L within 10 minutes? Heck yes, I did. Sadly, the black was sold out.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Instead of doing countless tests on sleeves that are virtually the same design (Velotoze, Rule 28, Zoot, Wyn, Castelli), I think it would be more interesting to compare the best of that design (likely Zoot due to the length) to other designs such as SwissSide, Compress Sport, NoPinz, etc.
Do you have any plans to look into this? I'd likely be willing to pitch in and offer up a pair for testing.

These are the socks of Sam Laidlow

Magnus wears the Fusion TEMPO sleeves, unsure what sock, but it is short

Look again ;)

Those are not the socks used by Sam in Nice, and those are not the sleeves used by Magnus in Nice.

Both used long socks, put on in T1 - and they look very thin for both of them.

I guess swimming without wetsuit and testing fast with sleeves - makes it more time efficient to put on long socks in T1, instead of sleeves in T1 and then socks in T2.

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Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri

Not even similar to what they wore. Sam's did not have the dots on the back, were thinner and had long vertical lines around the whole leg

My Bad - Sorry about that!

Hi Jim,

What would be your expectation for Swiss Side's calf skin? I'm not sure if you've tested it or not yet. https://www.swissside.com/...riant=45303510434084

It seems to have quite a lot of vertical extent / coverage, and fences at low angle of incidence with the leg vertical. Would be interested how that design works with varying angle of attack as the lower leg changes its orientation significantly throughout the pedal stroke. Swiss Side appear to be pretty good at aerodynamic evaluation of their products - your independent review would be of great interest.

Damn, they'd want to be good at £71 per... I got some Enduras off eBay for £15, which are pretty long but probably stretched too much.

Anything is going to be a benefit until I actually shave my legs though!

Side benefit is that they feel very cool around the calves. I'll take that.

And in everyone's proper size :-)

I am one of Jim's aero test dumbies ;), so i'll comment on a couple things:

Zoot sizing: I'm 5'9" and 145lbs, i had bought size S a few months ago, and used them for IM Tulsa and a local olympic. Both were wetsuit legal, so i just SBR'd with them on all day. I tested with the size M, and the fit was similar, except the medium was a little longer (ankle bone to just below the knee). The medium Rule28 was a snugger fit and seemed to stretch the fabric a bit more. Maybe a large would be different?

non-wetsuit swims:
I just used the Zoot calf sleeves in Nice. In T2, i just sat down and pulled them on. It likely took a max of 20 seconds.

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TEAM F3 Undurance

They will soon be out of the P1 suit…..

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I just looked at there site and they are sold out of almost every size haha

was your circumference for small or medium though? I am smaller then you but a medium size calf circumference. so you found very little different bw the circumference from s to m.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Did anybody ever find out the answer to this question? Both Ditlev / Laidlow?

A question on this Jim. Would you say that you're seeing the same thing in terms of sizing for the P1 suit?

I have traditionally erred on the smaller size if I'm between two, but this may suggest picking a Medium over a Small.

These:
https://www.compressport.com/...e-7630102542813.html

I asked Laidlow after Kona last year about the socks and he said in a wetsuit swim he'd wear calf sleeves but non wetsuit he puts these on in t1. Be generous in your size as they are tight. It's 20-30 additional seconds for my big feet to put these on over regular socks. And that's with baby powder in them.

I have both the Zoot and Silca socks. I used the Silca in a 70.3 and full last year. I thought about for my race this weekend wearing the Zoot under wetsuit and then pulling the socks on to close the gap at the bottom since I have long legs. Is that just nonsense?

Initially as per above, this is not the case, but apparently another (new?) model that Sam was using with stripes (not dots)

Kind of wishing Slica makes a 'super' tall socks like what Sam is wearing.
I have the compressor socks, they are HARD to put on during T1. That's why I switched to Slica.

Silca tall aero socks are back in stock. They are really nice and easy to put on. Perfect for no wetsuit races.

There is a video on their web site that shows how to put them on fast. I have done it wet and is pretty fast. For a half or a full it works fine. For anything shorter there is no need to wear them.

Have you made the video at different bike speeds with all the gear on yet. no rush.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Is there a reason you wouldn't just put them on under your wetsuit and then not have to put them on in T1? (Do they roll down with the wetsuit?)

I have a pair of Rule 28 aero socks that come up all the way to just below my knee and have the identical rib pattern of the Zoot calf sleeves. They are much taller than my Silca socks.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Is it legal to wear socks in the swim?

Sorry I meant calf sleeves

But I’m pretty sure socks are allowed as booties are

Ah ok I see you are correct booties are allowed, thank you

I think up above they were talking about really high socks. And the videos shows how to put them on quickly in T1

Socks (covers the foot) - no

Sleeves - Yes, but only if its a wetsuit swim

He used them in Kona. He maybe used a new version (prototype) in Nice but they are both compress sport.

Still not what he used in Nice :)

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Long Distance PB: 8:25
Instagram: larsschmidttri

Right. Not even similar!

We still have pending identifying Laidlow & Ditlevs aero sleeves from Nice.

I see Bækkegård was using sleeves very similar to Ditlev in his IMWA win. They are sleeves (not socks), initially unbranded and has lines (not dots). Initially not a sponsoring brand as Daniel is not wearing them on the podium. Below is a bad screen shots I managed to take.

Any guesses on what they may be?

Quite strange that he isn't wearing Fusion sleeves. Unless they are new Fusion ones and still in development.

Agree - but that would go for both Ditlev and Bækkegård, then. Also, even if they WERE are prototype, why not stick a logo on them and keep them on for the podium?

Shaved legs is faster or slower than calf sleeves?

The Suisse Side looks pretty interesting HERE with ribs going horizontal not vertical.

The white paper within that link makes me angry. Several pages to start of irrelevant OTT formula and 'science' with spurious detail that adds nothing relevant. And then when it gets to the end lacks data, presents things as misleading. For example the 8watts is the biggest single saving of the 13 tests, with 12 of those showing positive benefits. They do show the average is 4w, but not the standard deviation, nor do they provide any scatter graph of the data.

And if there's 13 readings, max 8 and mean 4 then I'm seeing that sd being close to make that 4w average saving a 50:50 of

Earlier they show and explain at length a frequency chart of speed tests to be used to weight the results. But then don't seem to use that later in the conclusion, or at least don't refer to that.

Jim said that he was going to follow-up with a test on that.

At the very least it sounds like Jim needs to do a 'test off' between the Zoot calf sleeves, Swiss Side calf sleeves & shaved legs.

That would be good, then i can decide to invest in some or just another packet of disposable razors

or a trimmer....leave 1-2mm of stubble? ;)

I actually have both the Zoot and Swiss Side calf sleeves. The Swiss Side ones are much longer and cover my entire calf, from above my ankle to right below the head of my tibia. Fitment is great too, just enough compression. The Zoot's aren't as long and are a little tighter towards the top, giving me a bit of a "muffin top".

Another interesting design feature of the Swiss Side sleeves is that while they have horizontal ribbing on the front, they terminate into two long vertical strips towards the back. To my uneducated eyes it looks to trip up the boundary layer of air as it flows around your calf.

One must not forget the upside-down chevron.
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Do they make you faster in the swim? I would think it would create drag?

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

I think they are just trying to make sure no one is throwing buoyancy sleeves on their calves. For a fast swimmer, probably no effect to negative effect. But someone that's dragging their legs it could help?

They would probably slow you down a bit (you can always test them at the local pool). Since you can only wear them in the swim during wetsuit legal races they will be under a wetsuit anyway, where they make no difference.

In theory, you could make calf sleeves that made you faster in the water (think the calf section of the now banned tights/bodysuits used in the pool circa 2008), but that design is different from what works for cycling (massive compression, no boundary layer trips). Again, no value in wearing them when you can wear a wetsuit instead.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
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A guy beat me to the podium last weekend on an Ironman 70.3. I was scanning everyone's photos that beat me to check out their equipment and thought he was wearing buoyancy sleeves seeing him (race photo) come out of the water but they ended up being his calf sleeves that he wore on the bike as well as during the non wetsuit swim.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Technically he violated the rules and should be a DSQ, but in the spirit of the rules he probably didn't gain an advantage in the swim, just the time he saved not having to put them on in T1.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

just the time he saved not having to put them on in T1.//

Which after watching some folks put them on, could be substantial. And yes, there probably is a type of sleeve that would make you faster in the water, just not sure the same properties are what make riding the bike faster too. But have to think that compression is a good thing in cycling, up to the point it becomes restrictive, which is exactly what makes more fabric is swimming faster too for the most part...


I mean if were going to ding a racer for taking a bottle from a friend, or helmet not in a box, or an inch across a dismount line, probably should get one of these in the books to keep others from thinking it is ok, dont you think??

Send it over to LetsRun and get their thoughts.

The OP has photo evidence of the violation, and seems to be the most impacted (he's the one who lost the last podium slot). I'm sure anyone can find the photo given the info he has provided (took me ~5min. and even found multiple offenders) and report the athlete to IM, but IMO leave it up to the OP to decide if he wants to go that route.

Examples:

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I've said this 100 times and I'd love to have the balls to just do it. A "bike chamois" that is ridiculously oversized and "becomes uncomfortable" shortly after starting the bike leg. This chamois would of course be a pseudo-pull buoy that extends a bit down the thighs, maybe to the legal limit of the knees, elevating the hips for the swim and tossed quickly on the bike.

I'm also not convinced that the losses on the bike and run of a huge ass chamois aren't entirely obviated by the swim gains. An oly could see ~4sec/100 gains with 50%wetsuit buoyancy. That's ~1min. I don't see much reason why an oversized chamois whould slow you down on the bike, heck you could even make it a shape that gives your legs a better aero profile. As long as the run isn't too hot and flexibility is persevered, losing >10sec/mile on the run seems unlikely.

Not my finest moment but in my second 70.3 (but first non wetsuit one) I wore a one piece cycling suit, not really having experience in the difference between tri gear. That chammy was quite squishy when I sat on the bike but I never noticed it much on the run.

Swim was salt water, non wetsuit. Time was 43 minutes. 2 months later I did another lake swim 70.3, also non wetsuit, and my swim was 7 minutes faster and I was wearing a trisuit.

Any number of factors could be at play here, not the least of which those parachute pockets on my back I was likely pulling around in the bike suit...

But I certainly didn't feel like the chammy helped!